A conversation with Kevin Sehlmeyer, State Fire Marshal & MPSCS Interoperability Board Member

In this show we talk with Kevin Sehlmeyer, State of MI Fire Marshal and MI Public Safety Communications Interoperability Board member to discuss radios, fire fighting, interoperability, MI Prevention and Community Risk Reduction. What does the Fire Marshal do, and what is the Public Safety Communications Interoperability Board? What is Interoperability? What technologies have improved fire fighting? In the 2nd half, we talk about the program MI Prevention. What does the data say about the biggest risks for fire fatalities, and what can YOU do to keep you and your family safe. RESOURCES: MI Prevention www.miprevention.org Regional Statistics https://mfis.org/fire-stats National Fire Protection Association www.NFPA.org VISION 20/20 www.strategicfire.org National Carbon Monoxide Awareness Association www.ncoaa.us American Red Cross https://www.redcross.org/get-help/how-to-prepare-for-emergencies/types-of-emergencies/fire/prevent-home-fire.html Resources for Teachers & Kids: https://ymiclassroom.com/lesson-plans/soundoff-teachers/ https://www.sparky.org/ Transcript: https://cms.michigan.gov/mpscs/-/media/Project/Websites/MPSCS/Social_Media/Transcripts/MPSCS-Fire-Marshal-Podcast-Transcript-v2.pdf

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Hi, welcome to our podcast, tuning in with MPSTS. My name is Judy Light, and today we have a very special guest with us, Kevin Tellmeyer. He is our state fire marshal and he serves on the Michigan Public Safety Communications Interoperability Board. He also serves as an ex officio member of the Michigan Firefighters Training Council and State Fire Safety Board. Prior to all of this, he served more than 30 years on the Grand Rapids Fire Department and was deputy fire chief in his final two years before retiring from there. Before that, he was a crash rescue firefighter for the Michigan Air National Guard. Today we're going to talk to Kevin about interoperability, radios, firefighting, and risk reduction. Welcome to the show, Kevin.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Thanks. Good morning, Judy. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Thank you. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you live, your family, that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Well, currently I live in Rockford, Michigan, which is uh north of Grand Rapids. And uh, you know, that was a great place to raise kids while working for the Grand Rapids Fire Department. It's a great community up in Rockford. And um, you know, some of my hobbies are um hockey is probably one of the biggest ones.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

You're a hockey player.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Um uh yeah, I was a player. We used to have a team in Grand Rapids called the Guns and Hoses. It was Grand Rapids Police and Fire and Kentwood Police and Fire. And we would play uh the doctors and EMS. They were the flatliners, and we would play a charity game every year. And uh fortunate to be involved actually with the Rockford Youth Hockey Association as a uh a rep um within the state. So youth hockey and uh have uh 19-year-old son that's still playing hockey at Lawrence Technological University down in Southfield. So wow. Do you still play? I uh I skate some. I think my playing days are are over.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

That ice seems to get harder the older we get a little bit. Now you were with the Grand Rapids Fire Department for 30 years before becoming the state fire marshal. And can you tell us about your job there?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, well, uh, you know, I grew up on the east side of the state, actually in Macomb County in a little town called New Baltimore. Okay, and uh moved to Grand Rapids in 1985, didn't know a soul going there, and uh had just a great career in the Grand Rapids Fire Department. Uh worked um my way up from firefighter to retiring as a deputy chief.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

So what prompted the move from one side of the state to the other?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Um well, it was 1985. Uh the auto industry was not doing so well, and getting a job in Metro Detroit was downright almost near impossible. And at the time, I was uh I was putting in applications with fire departments and taking tests, and there would be a thousand people and they would hire one or two people. So when the Grand Rapids came along and they offered me a job, and I was very fortunate. Uh Grand Rapids hadn't hired in the early 80s. Um, there again, the economy wasn't the best. And they hired 32 of us. And uh I went to Grand Rapids, uh, like I said, not knowing a soul, but knowing that it was uh, you know, a bigger city.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

I wanted to work in a bigger city and uh more opportunities, absolutely good. Sometimes that risk is is worth it. Um, now how did you become interested in becoming a firefighter in the first place?

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Well, I'm actually a second generation firefighter. So my dad was a firefighter, and um, my mom and dad were both in the Air Force, and that's where they met. And my dad was a firefighter, and my mom was a nurse. My mom and dad got married, and in those days, as a female in the military, when you became pregnant, they gave you a medical discharge. They thank you for your service. My dad got out of the Air Force and then um actually got hired as a federal firefighter, so working on an Air Force base. So it kind of grew up around the military and uh firefighting. Um, but to be straight up, I didn't uh leave high school with the idea of being a firefighter. I thought I was going to work in printing and graphic arts and uh had a revelation one day running a printing press at about 20. Oh dear. That I couldn't do this for the next uh 42 years, and that uh I really wanted to be a firefighter. So it was uh not something that I grew up as in that's what I'm going to do.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

It wasn't your dying desire to do it.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

But uh, you know, it's uh it it has been a great career and it's the best choice that I ever made, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Um, what sort of schooling did you have to become a firefighter?

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Well, you know, you mentioned that I had spent some time in the Michigan Air National Guard. Um, my father uh gave me some good advice too. He says, uh, last week you wanted to be a printer and this week you want to be a firefighter. And he says, How do you even know that you want to be a firefighter? And I said, Okay, I'm I'm I'm with you. I get what you're saying. He says, Hey, why don't you join the Michigan Air National Guard, go to firefighting school, you'll find out whether you like it or not. And if you don't like it at the end of four years and an enlistment, then you can go do what you want to do. Um, actually, uh, when I went to the recruiter, I found out the minimum at the time was a six-year enlistment. Um, but I'll say this I went to Air Force Basic Training, then went on to the Air Force Fire School in Chinoot, Illinois, and fell in love with firefighting.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

Right away.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

It was the right thing to do. Yeah. So kind of in the calling though. It's kind of inner, yeah, it's kind of interesting. I think my dad had a good point of, you know, you gotta sometimes you gotta try something. Yes. After that, it was then within a year I was hired by the Grand Rapids Fire Department because I came back and realized that okay, that's that's what I need to do. And then continued to serve in the Michigan Air National Guard until 1990. So it was it was good to uh you know spend some time at Selfridge over in the Detroit area at the air base, and then uh bet finished up at the Battle Creek in the Air Guard.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

So sometimes dads know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Absolutely. Um I was with my parents uh two weekends ago and we had that discussion, and absolutely that was that was just good advice.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

And your mom was supportive of you, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

And my mom and you know, my mom went on um to be a nurse. It's kind of interesting growing up in a household where your mom's a nurse and your dad's a firefighter. And so your dad works 24 hours a day and uh your mom works at the hospital. And uh also we were kind of talking about uh Christmas uh doesn't always get celebrated on December 25th when your uh you know your parents work at a hospital or work in firefighting. So it kind of grew up around that.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

And uh not everybody's got a traditional family like that.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Exactly. It's uh based on your work hours for sure.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

And you make it work. Yep. Now, how long have you been the Michigan Fire Marshal? And what exactly does the fire marshal do?

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Well, I've been a the state fire marshal since uh April of 2017. I actually was appointed by Governor Schneider. And then the then after the election, um, Governor Whitmer asked me to stay on as the fire marshal. So I've been the been the fire marshal actually longer for Governor Whitmer than I was for the for Governor Schneider who appointed me. So nice, you know, it's been four over four years now. And that's a that's a good question when you ask what does the fire marshal do? The fire marshal is also the director of the Bureau of Fire Services, which is over at Licensed and Regulatory Affairs or Lara.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

And uh in the process, um, if you're ever uh in a hospital, um, the hospitals are inspected by inspectors that work at the Bureau of Fire Services. Um, if you're adding on to a hospital, a school, a nursing home, an adult foster care home, regulated facilities, their uh plan review is done at the Bureau of Fire Services and then followed up with an inspection to make sure that it was built correctly. And then the other part is if you've ever uh bought gas in the state of Michigan, you've been to a gas station. And gas stations and storage tanks are regulated by the Bureau of Fire Services. So that's also part of the fire marshal's job. And then 660,000 fire reports are generated from 1,114 fire departments. All those reports come through the Bureau of Fire Services, and then training for all the firefighters in the state of Michigan. So we want to make sure that all firefighters are trained for the needs of the community. And then fireworks sales. If you've bought fireworks, that's part of the Bureau of Fire Services. And actually, a service fee is attached to the sale of consumer fireworks, which pays for firefighter training.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Oh, no kidding.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yep. And then the last program, when I say the last program, there's seven total at the Bureau of Fire Services, the fire marshal overseas is MI prevention. And that's to reduce fatal fires in the state of Michigan, but also it's morphed into more community risk reduction. So, how do we keep Michiganers safe from fire, carbon monoxide, slips falls, drowning? Because fire departments run on all of those types of calls, at least the ones that do EMS. So it's it actually has worked well for us.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

It's kind of an octopus.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

It is. It's uh, you know, it is uh, you know, that's what people say. And and then, you know, also as the fire marshal, you know, there's stuff that um, you know, the executive office, there's programs, there's different things that we're implementing across the state, but ultimately looking out for the fire safety of everyone who calls Michigan home or visits the state of Michigan. That's our job.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

People don't even give that a thought, and you're behind all of this.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Yeah, there's uh there's a lot going on, yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Um, you also serve on the Public Safety Communications Interoperability Board, which oversees the MPSCS, which is where I work. Can you explain your role with the board and what the board does?

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Well, the the board is actually, you know, it's a bunch of public safety partners that are focused on all aspects of interoperability. And when we talk about interoperability, it's really can the fire folks talk to the MS folks? Can they talk to law enforcement and you know, also other state and federal agencies? Um, and you know, one of the things that part of being on that board is is that we get the ability to oversee. When I say oversee, a lot of things are being implemented or improvements that are needed, or even innovation um within the MPSCS. Um, we talk about that as a board, and uh we advise the governor on interoperability also. So a lot of lot changing in technology, um, but really we're representing the ability to communicate statewide between fire, law, local, state officials, right? Right. And uh even emergency preparedness is tied into what we're doing with that board. So um, and then we have work groups that actually then um allow us to you know drill it down even further to really the end service that we provide. And that is we need a radio system that works when uh incidents are happening, and incidents happen all the time, they do, without a doubt. It doesn't it doesn't slow down, and you think about it. I mentioned earlier you asked me what do we do at the Bureau of Fire Services, 660,000 fire reports, which means that there was 660,000 responses in the state in one year, yes, on the fire side. So that isn't even counting law enforcement. So you need every one of those instances, there was a radio involved. Okay. There was a there was a fire vehicle involved, there was a response. So it's there's a lot of moving parts going on here in the state of Michigan.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

That's a lot to keep track of.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

It is.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

We hear the word interoperability a lot, but why is it important that fire agencies and firefighters have interoperable communications?

SPEAKER_02 11:20

I spoke a little bit about, you know, the the calls that we go on that, if you want to say are providing fire, but many of those operations that were going to set be set under those incidents are gonna involve even more than one fire department. Um, but then we also have to look bigger than that. It's a multi-agency response. You know, a lot of places, uh the ambulance company is maybe separate from the from the fire. And then law enforcement, you know, you look at even in each county. I mean, you can have local police departments, you can have the sheriff's department in in that county, and then of course the Michigan State Police has a presence across the whole uh state. So, you know, when you start looking at multi-agencies, multiple jurisdictions, multidisciplines, and then how do we how do we tie it all together? How do we link the ability to communicate?

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Like the accident I saw not far from my house not too long ago, where it was it was a decent fender bender, but then you've got, you know, two or three police agencies, a couple different fire departments. I think there was two ambulance companies.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

If you really want to tie that all back, really 9-11 was uh a benchmark in our history and interoperability. There were challenges between all the different agencies coupled with being inside that building. If you look at it, over 200 fire stations responded to the World Trade Center, but in many cases they were on different radio systems, and that's caused us really to all step back. Really, kind of in the middle of my career with the Grand Rapids Fire Department. We had to step back and say, hey, how do we communicate? How do we work better with all these other agencies, all these other jurisdictions so that we can operate and communicate with each other?

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Well, and going back watching those 9-11 um historical you know pieces that come up now, and when you realize that they couldn't talk to each other and what was going on, that's just it's kind of chilling.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yeah, and it and that's one of the things that I think we've really seen a lot of the improvements that have come out of since 9-11 in the in the radio systems and the radios themselves. It was no 9-11, but I've been on the end of, hey, I'm in a building. One comes back is uh we've got a problem with an elevator um and the motors burning up in the in the penthouse of an elevator in an 11-story building in Grand Rapids, and I can hear them asking me what I need, but they are not hearing me. And we had to get creative. We found a found a door and we actually made our way out onto the roof so that I could get that signal out. But you know, the the communications have come a long ways, but you know, that just goes to show that everybody thinks, well, I'll push the button, it's gonna work. And I think our cell phones, even we've all been in places where we don't have a signal, right? And you kind of scratch your head on that one. Well, that's life or death in emergency communications, and we need that stuff when we push the button to work.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

It gets stressful for you guys.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

It does.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

Um, how has firefighting changed throughout the years? And how are the new technologies improving the communications response times?

SPEAKER_02 14:12

A lot of fire departments were on a VHF or UHF uh radio system. They're they're outdated, they're uh past their, if you want to say, their life cycle. Even if you take the old pagers, they can only page out one fire department at a time. And when you look at the state of Michigan, we talk about 1,114 fire departments. About 80% of those fire departments are volunteer or paid on call. They're working their regular job, they support their family, they're uh farming, they're uh running businesses, a whole host of things across the state. And we have to have a way to get there. So, you know, these old pager systems, um, we were starting to have uh problems. But what we've been able to do is we've been able to leverage the 800 megahertz and the new paging system, and we're starting to see more and more counties come on board across the state. 90% of structure fires in our counties typically require mutual aid from more than one fire department. You know, I even seen in my career where you know the Wyoming fire department in the Grand Rapids area is on one frequency, Kentwood's on a different frequency, uh, the Grand Rapids Fire Department's on a different frequency. Um, and and back early on, we'll talk about 9-11 time frame coming out of that. Is it's literally I'm holding this radio and that radio. And I know right now I'm holding up two cell phones.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I know it's a podcast of people can't see it, but you know, the reality is that you know, I'm listening to this device, this device is talking to me, I have to respond. And and what's really changed is uh a P25 voice pager that allows a two-tone pages and also allows us to monitor um that radio. And while a lot of this stuff has uh been going getting put in place, if you want to say in my tenure as the fire marshal, because there's been a lot of changes, um, I have uh the third generation Selmeyer firefighter living at my house. That would be my son Sean. Um, and prior to getting hired by the city of Muskegon here recently as a full-time firefighter, he was on the Cortland Township Fire Department in northern Kent County. So I talk about Rockford, we talk about northern Kent County. And um, you know, it was kind of interesting to watch him get his new P25 pager, and it started to show up at my house. And I thought, you know, there was a little stint from the time I retired from Grand Rapids that I was on paid on call fire department prior to being appointed uh the state fire marshal. And you know, you go back to the old pagers to this new pager, and you know, I'm like, wow, this is this has come a long way. Now we're talking this is within four years, so it's kind of interesting that these pagers help us. They're gonna they're gonna support analog, which has been out there for a while, but it's also gonna help us to get to digital. There also is the need for the standard system was brought about in part by the Federal Communication Commission's narrow ban mandate that went into effect on January 1st of 2013. So considerable uh coverage was lost in the change due to the analog narrow ban, often requiring dispatch centers to invest precious financial resources and standalone analog simulcast systems to be used for local paging. So by making that change, I think we're we're leveraging um funds that you know it used to be this county had certain things that they had to do, but by coming onto a system, I think we get more uh bang for the bunk. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Um, if you could give a young person advice who wants to enter the field of firefighting or emergency response or fire safety, what would you recommend to them?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Well, I think I think it starts in the community. And as I've already shared, about 80% of the communities across the state of Michigan are uh volunteer or pay to call fire departments. It starts with going up to the fire station and having a conversation. If folks are in a more of a suburban or urban area, there are regional training centers across the state. Uh, a lot of them are associated with community colleges, and uh that's that's a way to go get the training so that you know you can prepare yourself um for a career in firefighting. Um, but there is a shortage of firefighters in the state right now. And and I'll give you an example. Um, the Grand Rapids Fire Department took applications for the last three weeks, and usually they get about 1,200 people applying. This year they had uh, you know, less than 800 that applied.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

And you're starting to see that in a lot of communities where there just aren't as many folks. I have a 20-year-old son, as I share, that just started with the Muskegon Fire Department. And, you know, I didn't really push him at all in the sense of, I mean, he was around the fire service. He he trained. Uh, I took him to training and different things as he was growing up and stuff. Um, but he came to me and he says, How do I go about this? And I said, Well, you need to contact the the chief over at Cortland Township. And he went over and talked with the chief. And at that point, then they sent him to the county fire school. And it was uh, you know, one night a week, a few Saturdays here and there to get you trained. Um, my OSHA, Michigan OSHA has requirements for firefighters that they have to be trained, and that's for the safety of the firefighters, but also for the for the citizens to make sure that you have trained firefighters. Um, but it's definitely there are a lot of opportunities out here to get involved in your community. And the one good thing about it is that once you're trained as a firefighter, it's transferable within the state. So, you know, this is a conversation I've had with some of the chiefs of, well, if I train somebody and then they um, you know, I'll use the Lansing area. You know, I train them in uh they go to the fire academy, they start out in uh, you know, Windsor Township, but then they let's say go to college at Central Michigan and they settle in in the Saginaw area in Saginaw Township that eventually they could, because they are trained, they could then transition into, or in some cases, maybe some folks go to college and decide what they were going to college for is and what they were going to do. Sure. And then they can apply for these fire departments. So it is uh it is a training process that you know you can take these skills and take them to other communities. So that's very valuable, and they shouldn't be bashful, go up and knock on the door and I say Yeah, I think that especially, you know, to say, hey, I'm interested in it. And uh, you know, a lot of the the fire departments, you know, you go and observe when they're doing training and certain things, but there definitely is a need. There is a need for firefighters statewide. You know, I shared earlier that there's safety fees on fireworks that pay for firefighter training. The academies, um especially the ones at the county level, are going to be free to the individual to get trained. Now, when you look at the RTCs or the regional training centers with colleges, um, there is a fee involved there because you're getting trained. Um, but there are ways to get trained. Um, you do have to be a member of a Michigan fire department, though, to attend a fire academy at the county level.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

So you have to be kind of sponsored.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Yes. Okay. Absolutely. You're actually brought on the roster, you actually become a member of that department while you go through the training.

unknown 20:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

We're going to take a little break, and when we come back, we're going to continue with Kevin Selmeyer, our state fire marshal.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

And now a fire safety tip from MI Prevention.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

In 2018, 139 Michiganners died in residential fires. Many, if not all, of these fires were preventable. We need your help by having working smoke alarms in your home and going to your elderly family members and checking their smoke alarms by pushing the button to make sure that their smoke alarms work. Educating today for a safer tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

For more tips, visit Michigan.com backslash MIPrevention. And now a fire safety tip from MIPrevention.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Did you know that having two ways out to save the lives of you and your family? However, if that door is back to make fire, you have to know if your second way out may be the way. Education today for stay for tomorrow for more tips.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Visit Michigan.gov backslash MI Prevention.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Welcome back to our podcast. I am Judy Like, and we're continuing our program with Kevin Stellmeyer, our state fire marshal. And we're going to talk about MI Prevention, which is a community risk reduction program for the state of Michigan. It's constructed of volunteers and partnerships between fire agencies and organizations. Now, can you tell us what this MI Prevention is and what your role as fire marshal, how that works with it?

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Yeah, absolutely. So Judy, back in 2017, when I was appointed the state fire marshal, one of the things that I asked was, you know, what are the what are projects that you that I need to work on? And one of the biggest ones was that, hey, fire marshal, we have a lot of fire fatalities in the state of Michigan. We need you to work on how do we lower fire fatalities. So one of the things early on was there was already groups that are in Michigan, Michigan Fire Inspector Society, Michigan Fire Instructors, different different groups that are out there. And then also from the previous fire marshal, there was a work group that was working on this issue. So took that group along with some other folks that I knew from being in the fire service at that point for you know 30-some years and put together this uh task force. And one of the things that that resonated with the group really early on was that we need a strategic plan. We need to know where we're going, we need to collect good data. Um, a guy by the name of Kyle Saboda, who is a district chief over in uh Plainfield Township, which is outside of Grand Rapids, he's saying, hey, if we collect this data, then we can it we need to be data driven. And so a lot of the stuff comes from the U.S. Fire Administration, coming from Vision 2020, which is a group out there of fire professionals across really the world, both in the United States and internationally, are looking at how do we reduce these fire fatalities. So early on, it was we came up with a three-year strategic plan. And uh we really started to grow this. It was really growing a brand. And even during the process of if you want to go all the way from the state fire marshal's task force to reduce fire fatalities to now what is known as MI prevention, and then add in community risk reduction. And these are all programs that are nationally that communities across in states. And uh, so what we're trying to do is we want, you know, we really want to inspire and stimulate a conversation between a bunch of um partners. It could be the fire service, it could be folks from DHHS, another state agency. It could be folks from trauma nurses organizations, and it's kind of interesting as this has uh started to grow. Um, we uh are fortunate here in the state, the the National Carbon Monoxide Awareness Association is based out of uh Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, over in Oakland County. And we're getting all these folks together with one goal in mind, and that is to reduce fire fatalities, but also to reduce injury from fire and carbon monoxide. And there's certain times of the year that we need to focus on things, like um when Michigan, we start to get outside in the spring, um, water safety awareness. Um, when we get into um 4th of July, fireworks safety um and then fire prevention month in the state of Michigan. And uh Governor Whitmer proclaimed October of 2021 as fire prevention month across the state. So, what we've really been able to do is get a lot of fire departments, and I'm talking about over 300, almost 400 fire departments now out of the 1,114 are actually working with us. Um, and we don't tell anybody how they have to do community risk reduction. We give them the resources. That local fire department knows their community better than we'll ever know it. But we make things available like smoke alarms and different types of life-saving devices for those experiencing disabilities. And by providing this equipment, by providing uh by having meetings, um, we bounce ideas off of each other, we develop uh ideas, slogans, and different things that we're going to use, and we leverage that so that we can reduce fire fatalities across the state.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

Nice. And it's nice that you you've recognized that it's not a one size fits all. Everybody is able to modify it a little bit. I think that makes a big difference for them. Um, can you tell us some of the programs that MI prevention fosters that support fire safety?

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yeah, one of the things I talked about smoke alarms and carbon monoxide detectors is we provide those to fire departments. Um, initially in 2018, we got a $525,000 grant from FEMA that was for fire prevention efforts across the state. And then through that, we've been able to get creative with uh funding within Lara. Um, and what we've actually been able to do is to provide resources. We also at times will have groups or agencies contact us and tell us that they have funding, maybe they got a grant. So a lot of times some of these fire departments will get their own grant, um, but they're not sure how to implement it. They're not sure how to track it.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

And we talk about being data driven. Um, one of the things that we have is available on an iPad or an iPhone that a fire department, once we put them in there, they can enter smoke alarms. Now they're doing a home safety visit and we're keeping track of how many home safety visits we're doing around the state.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Oh, no kidding.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

So it that's one of the things is we're kind of the clearinghouse, if you want to say, in the sense that the data is coming in. The data is coming in from fatal fires, unfortunately, that still continue to occur, but we're working to reduce those. And then we're also then getting the data of how many smoke alarms are being put up really every day, every week in the state of Michigan. And how do we connect those fire departments with the resources they need? Because ultimately, as a state fire marshal, I can't be out uh in a hundred homes today putting up smoke alarms. Right. But if I get 25 fire departments to go out and go to four houses today, now we got a hundred more families that are protected across the state. We provide the resources, the framework. Um, we even go so far as to train um fire departments or even civic organizations. Sometimes our groups, Red Cross, uh, different types of clubs that are around, they want to get involved. And probably one of our biggest partners that we've been able to uh work with is the American Red Cross. And the American Red Cross has a program nationwide. So they were already out working in the communities. And now what we're able to do is we're actually taking all of their data, we're taking the number of smoke alarms, and we're putting it all together, and we are making a difference across the state of Michigan.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Are other states doing things like this?

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yeah, all the states are, if you want to say the Red Cross is doing some of these programs. Um, a lot of states are doing different things. Um, but I I will share this and uh, you know, being involved with the National Uh State Fire Marshalls Association. You know, there's 50 of us across the state. It's interesting that um we're really we're a leader out there. The state of Michigan, um, you could put us in the top 10, and that we are out there um with this statewide collaboration that's going on. We're getting calls from other states that are looking at what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

A little bit of direction.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yeah. And and we're learning from a lot of other folks. I mentioned Vision 2020, and there's a a Ceph. And I know that every in government we always like our acronyms, right? But it's a collaboration and engagement framework. And what they're trying to do is they're trying to get all 50 states to kind of go at this uh in the same way. And what that really is doing is we're identifying what are the challenges, what are the things we need to work on. So we're looking at it at a state level, but now how do we take it down to those 1,114 fire departments or communities, townships, villages, and how do we get them to look at their risk? And then once they identify what's the risk in their areas, then how do we support them? That's part of MI prevention.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

That's amazing, actually, that everything is coming together like this. Um, what do you see were the biggest causes and trends for fatal fires? And what could people be doing to minimize those risks?

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Well, we know that as of today, we've had 87 fatal fires in the state from 75 fires. But you got to know the numbers so you have an idea where you're at. Now, we're actually for this year, we're tracking a little bit down, which is good. I mean, that that's what we're trying to do is to really drive the trend totally down. Um, one of the things that we've noticed is that 30% of the folks who've died in fires are experiencing some form of disability. So, what we've done is we've established a regional program with um the disability communities around the state through the disability network, and they're broken up into 15 areas across the state. And so we have a person from the disability network coupled with a member of MI Prevention, and they're working in their areas, and we're helping to we'll go in and we'll install uh equipment, bed shakers for folks who are deaf. So there's something under the pillow that shakes so that when their smoke alarm goes off. Um, we have smoke alarms that have strobes. So, what we're really looking at is how do we focus in on that? Now, 65% of our fire fatalities, the folks who died in fires this year out of those 87 are males. And we're also starting to see age groups. So the people who are at most risk to die in a fire in Michigan are over the age of 40. And if you're looking for, I asked Kyle Saboda from Plainfield recently, he's kind of my data guy, right? I can call up Kyle and I say, Kyle, where are we at? The from 2017 through present day, looking at all the data of all the fatal fires, the age group that has the largest amount, and we're talking about we're talking about a year, are folks that are 69 years old, predominantly males. So, you know, COVID has made it a little tough to get out, get in the community, and get into some places, but we know that we need to start focusing on where do 69-year-old men live.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Okay, different places in the community. But as we've also looked at these fatal fires, we've also, because we will track where the addresses are, we can go back and look at the assessed value in a community. We now know that the majority of folks who die in fires in Michigan die in 800 to 1100 square foot homes. Not to say that people don't die in smaller homes, not to say they don't die in bigger homes. But if you're if you're looking at the biggest ban, and these homes were built in the 40s, 50s, 60s.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

So one of the things that we talk about with our partners that are out in in these different communities is if you're gonna target an area, let's go target an area of Jonesville, where the houses were built, okay, in Hillsdale County. Those houses were built during this time frame. And what we typically find is a lot of those folks might even have built those houses, or it was their first house that they bought, right? Yeah, but they're aging in place. And that's one of the things that we're seeing. You know, you you asked me in the first segment, what does the state fire marshal do? Well, one of the things is um home for the aged, adult uh nursing homes, adult foster care. One of the things is that by using fire code and by building these buildings with sprinkler systems and alarm systems, we protect that population very well. Some of the most vulnerable folks in the state. We also have a very vulnerable, that's what our data says, section of our state that are aging in place in communities all across the state. Right. So we're trying to provide by taking that data, and we've got it drilled down to the day of the week. By the way, this year, Saturday is the most deadly day of the week. Um, and then we start looking at, and this is these have stayed the same since 2017. Smoking is the number one cause of these fatal fires, followed by heating, followed by cooking. And that's consistently stayed there. Now, if you were to run the data in the state of Michigan, I talked about these 660,000 fire reports that are coming in, and not all of them are fires, but the ones that are fires. The largest number of fires we have in the state are cooking fires. But that's not where folks are dying. And don't get me wrong, we are working to eliminate cooking fires. We don't want anybody to have a fire, right? But we need to focus in, and what the trends keep pointing us back to, it keeps coming back to smoking, and then we even drilled it down into what rooms are these fires starting in. So, you know, when somebody's smoking, sitting in a chair, sitting on a couch, if they were to fall asleep, and unfortunately, that's how a lot of these fatal fires, but also folks who are on oxygen treatment who are also smoking. And so one of the things, um, just last week I was at a dinner with the International Association of Arson Investigators, and we were talking about the data. And that's one thing about this data, we've been able to leverage that where we can have conversations now with people. And there were a number of folks sitting at the table from different communities around the state, and they said, you know, this is an issue. There are unfortunately, there's way too many of these oxygen connected fires. So, you know, we started looking at, I don't know, is it a pamphlet that goes to respiratory therapists? Is it a pamphlet that goes to um, you know, people who deliver oxygen?

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

We're looking at that of, hey, how do we get that message? The other program that's out there, meals on wheels. A lot of our seniors are getting meals brought to their house every day. But could we work in collaboration with them to make sure they have a working smoke alarm and to make sure that they have an exit strategy if they were to have a fire? And let's face it, as we get older, we don't move as fast. So, you know, these are all things that the statistics are coming back. We're also finding out that 45% of the homes where these fatal fires occur do not have a working smoke alarm. Now, I didn't say they don't have a smoke alarm.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Working.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

I said they don't have a working smoke alarm. So one of the things the smoke alarms that we're installing statewide through this program all have 10 years sealed batteries. You can't take the battery out. Therefore, you don't have to change the battery every year because what happens with a lot of folks is they hear the chirp. Yeah, the batteries going dead, but they don't have, and nor I would say this. My parents, um, I'm lucky enough still to have my parents. Um, they're going to be 80 next year. I really don't want them changing the batteries. That's my job.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

But I could install a 10-year sealed smoke alarm, and now I don't have to worry about every year.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yeah, you don't have to get on the ladder either.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Yep. And I can push the button when I'm there to visit. I check the alarms. I know that my parents have working smoke alarms.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

I have to do that with my dad too.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

And that and that and that's a great point. Thank you for doing that. And that's one of the things, if there's one message I really want to drive home from today, is that we need to take care of our older relatives, our neighbors, and our friends. And something as simple as when you visit, push the button, make sure they have working smoke alarms.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

It was always a rule in our family that you change it or you check it when the the clock changes every year.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

And you're right, we will capitalize off of that. It's been it's kind of a rule of thumb thing that we grew up around. We're gonna still still stress that. Um, but we want to make sure that ideally, if we could uh get these nine-volt smoke alarms and replace them with a 10-year smoke alarm, we we think that we'll we'll have coverage that'll be better coverage for folks.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

I would prefer not to get on the ladder twice a year myself. Yes.

unknown 37:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 37:57

All right, so what should people do to minimize these risks?

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Well, you know, Judy, a lot of times we talk about the don'ts, right? Don't do this, don't do that. And really what we're starting to find out as we do more and more of this stuff with MI prevention is we got to provide people with the do's so that when a fire does occur, we want people to either have done things so that they're in a better position to escape the fire or what they're going to do during the fire. So, you know, Kimberly Pashkowski, who runs our MI prevention program, her and I were having a conversation recently, and she said, you know, we really need to practice. And it's practice, practice, practice. And if you think about anything you've done, and like I don't care if it's from learning how to play a musical instrument or a sport or a game, or you got to practice. And really, if we're going to see a decrease in fatal fires and fire injuries across the state, we've got to get people to practice. Um, you know, that practice of when you change your clock, change the battery. That I mean, really, that that's pretty visionary if you think about it. But with that also being said, we need to make sure that everyone has a working smoke alarm on every level of their home. Um, I gotta kind of maybe throw in a funny story here. So I hadn't been the fire marshal for very long. And one of the things, if you notice today, I said you need to have a smoke alarm on every level. Well, some of the older stuff was you need to have a smoke alarm on every floor. So if I the basement's a floor, the first floor is a floor, the second floor, right? Go up to the second floor. So we were we had that messaging, and and I had got a phone call as state fire marshal, and I actually thought somebody was uh, you know, fire service, we kind of joke with each other a little bit, and I thought it was somebody playing a joke at me. And and and uh somebody shared with me that well, I don't understand. I I don't like having a smoke alarm on the second floor because it's in the hallway and it gets in the way when I run the sweeper. So that causes to think you think you're getting a message to somebody that every floor, no, we need it, we need a smoke alarm on every level. So we really changed our messaging. If you were to go back and look at some of the messaging that we were putting out in 2017, have a smoke alarm on every floor, right? Well, apparently somebody thought that meant install it. A little too literal, a little too literal. So, you know, we're saying have one on every level and then one in every sleeping area. So, you know, if if you have uh a bigger family, you have a den that you've converted into a bedroom, now it's a sleeping area. It needs, and what we want it ideally is to have a door that can close and have a smoke alarm in what would be the common area, which usually is your hallways, yeah, and in your bedroom. So that the door was closed and the fire started in the bedroom, that would wake the people up in the bedroom. And then conversely, if it started another part of the home, remember we said the leading place that fatal fires started are living rooms, followed by heating equipment, usually in basements or utility rooms, right? Fireplaces, and then go to cooking, the kitchen. So there's chances are you could find yourself in a bedroom when this fire actually started another part of the home. And that's what we're really seeing as we look at these fatal fires and what a great relationship we have with the Michigan State Police Fire Investigation Unit. Okay. And they're actually getting the information from these fatal fires and giving it back to us that we know that people were trying to escape, but they aren't quite getting there. So having that smoke alarm on every level, every sleeping area gives you early warning to get out. I'm asking you, we talk about the don'ts. Don't go and try to figure out where the fire is at. What I'd like you to do is get out of the building and then call 911. And we actually are creatures of habit. We usually come in and out of the same door when we come to the house. So if you park in the garage, you usually come through the door off the side of the garage. If you park in the driveway, you might go through the front door. If you can't, if you don't use your front door, you always go in the back door. What I'm getting at is that in fires, we see people trying to use the door they use all the time, but there was a closer place to exit.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

So that's one of the things that we really want to look at. We also know that carbon monoxide is an issue, especially in heating seasons, but even around storms and stuff, people run generators, uh, different things like that. So we want a carbon monoxide um detector in each home. Ideally, we'd like to have one on every level. And you need to close your bedroom door when you sleep at night. And that's one of the reasons why you're gonna hear the smoke alarm out in the hallway. You might open the door a little bit. Oh my gosh, there's a fire going on. Hey, I'm gonna get my kids from across the hall, I'm gonna bring them across the hall, and then we're gonna go out a window. And when we talk about going out a window, that's something that we got to really stress to folks. You've got to close the door before you open the window because otherwise you create, and and what we say in the fire service is a flow path.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

So if you so one of the first things is if I was getting my kids, I let's say we all sleep on the second floor, I'd gather up my kids. I would then go to a bedroom that we've talked about and we practiced in. We're not gonna try to go down the stairs towards the fire. Right. That's not working out for folks. So we need to we need to talk about that. We're gonna close the door, then we're gonna open the window. Some windows are better than others. Um, you might find that um one of your kids' bedroom windows go out onto a uh flat roof, or they go out onto a roof where you could get out of the building itself. Um, the fire department has ladders. Every firefighter in the state is trained to throw a ladder. We even do it in our testing of firefighters, they have to show us that they can put up a ladder. You getting on the outside of the building as fast as you can by using the closest exit, we can get you down with a ladder, we can even get you out of that window, but we got to close that door. So, ideally, we should have those doors closed, anyways, to keep um smoke and heat. Um, and there really is a good video out there by Underwriters Laboratory. It's a comparison of side by side, a bedroom with a door open, a bedroom with a door closed. And if you go to miprevention.org to our website, that video is available for folks to take a look at it. I would recommend that for any parents out there, but also for uh we talked about taking care of our elderly family members and friends. It'd be a good idea to show them that. That door, a closed door buys you time to escape a fire.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

It's one more barrier.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Yeah. It's two ways out. You always want to make sure that you so I'm gonna go to this door. If I can't go to the door, I'm gonna go out this window. Do your windows open? I mean, you talk about practice, practice, practice. I'll say this. My kids, when they were growing up, um, you know, I I even had a little fun with them. You know, one thing about being the training chief to have access to a smoke machine, so you know, kind of that theatrical smoke, right? And that we used to train our firefighters. And, you know, I've smoked up the living room, so they opened the bedroom door, they saw the smoke and they all they climbed out the window. Um, my kids who are now 19 and 20, and now I got a 20-year-old that's a firefighter, right? They still talk about some of the best times was when we ran these fire drills. And that's one of the things that that's creating a tradition. I hope that my kids do that with their kids someday, right? But further, if my dad is using a walker, we probably ought to have a fire drill where he actually makes his way to the door. And you might find out that the walker won't go through the door, you got to turn it sideways. Well, if my dad's thought about that, and I don't know, maybe when we practice his pivot on the walker, now my dad's got a plan.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

And so if we can talk about the plan of this is what we're going to do and how we do it, if and then, okay, if this happens, then we're going to do this. And you're going to see us at MI Prevention, we're going to start using virtual reality and some other things. We got some plans. Um, we need to acquire the funding to do it. Uh, the technology's there to do it. Right. It won't be long. We'll be able to simulate you're in a burning building and you're going to make decisions through virtual reality that can save your life. But in the interim, smoke alarm on every level of your home, push the button, make sure it works every month. Have an escape plan. What are you going to do? If and then we have some uh documents that are available on miprevention.org. When I say that, it's you can get a floor plan. Hey, even sitting down with your dad, sitting down with your parents, and saying, okay, if this happens, what are you going to do? And draw it out for the kids. What a great activity. Um, put it on the refrigerator. It's it's artwork, right? It's our plan. This is what we're going to do. Um, but it ultimately comes down to practice. And uh, my kids will also tell you that the nighttime fire jewels were a lot of fun, too. I don't know, there's something about climbing out your window and it's dark out, right? But you know, they had a plan, and then and then where are you going to go? We're gonna go to the meeting place, and uh, you don't go back inside burning buildings. Um, folks that were out of the they actually made the call to 911 to dispatch. Hey, my house is on fire, and for whatever reason they went back in. Um, and then unfortunately, they are part of uh our fatalities each year. So practice, practice, practice.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

It's it's one thing to talk about it, but when you actually physically do it, yes, puts it in your brain a little bit differently. And Christmas is coming up too, and there's always we hear the tragedies about the Yep, Christmas trees.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Yeah. If you're gonna get a if you're gonna use a live tree, you're right. We aren't that far away. And it's always good to you know go out to the Christmas tree farms. We've done that a few times and or went to the Christmas tree lot about, you know, you want to cut the end of the tree off and get it fresh, and you want to be giving it plenty of water and um even our decorations. I've been to some fires in my career where it was a candle with some pine cones and some pine brows that looked great on the mantle, but it actually was the source of a house fire. And and we don't want anybody to have a fire during the Christmas season. I don't want anybody to have a fire ever. Right. But you know, it's some of the things that we do that we can uh we can reduce the risk of having a fire.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Um, what resources are there for people to learn more about reducing risk for fire and to access the wonderful work that this group is doing?

SPEAKER_02 47:57

Well, you know, there's a number of uh even out on YouTube, there's a number of videos. Um, you know, we're a little partial to miprevention.org, and that's where we're putting a lot of our our stuff. Um, we're constantly updating it. Um, we've got some brand new PSAs that we uh shot with some of the fire folks down in uh Oakland County, some of the fire marshals. And some of them are even related to Christmas time and different times of the season. So, you know, there's a lot of training materials out there. One program that I haven't really hit on yet, but we are using here in the state, it's called the Sound Off program. And it is a school-based program. And uh we still hold the record here in Michigan. I kind of want to brag this up a little bit because uh Eileen Pettinger, who is a captain with the Saginaw Fire Department, actually ran one of our pilot programs uh right before the pandemic. So in 2019, she went into the Saginaw some schools, elementary schools, second and third graders. And what was interesting about the sound off program, there is a knowledge um, if you want to say quiz. I know a lot of people get nervous on tests, but we we just asked the kids, what do you know about this? What do you know about smoke alarms? What do you know about levels and close your door and all that other stuff? Her class from the time that she was in there to the time they were done, and there's an exit knowledge check in Saginaw, Michigan, in in our state, we had this the greatest learning outcome of this national program across the country. Really? Yeah. And so, you know, and Eileen, it's kind of interesting, she had the ability in uh February of 2020, right before the pandemic started, to present about the sound-off program at Vision 2020, which is a national conference. They also went and put up smoke alarms. So what she did is she had um a pizza party at the school, but in a way to sort of get a ticket. We were gonna let all the kids have pizza. We're not gonna but we shared with the kids if you go home and make an escape plan and bring it back. So they all went home with this piece of paper and they did it. And then she also asked who didn't have smoke alarms, and we found that there were families in Saginaw that had zero smoke alarms. Wow. So we then went out to their houses, but then some of the best pictures are afterwards where she ran escape drills with those families and had them come out windows, had them, hey, they always want to go to this door, but we're gonna go to this door because it's closer and we're not gonna go do this. So it gets back to I shared the dues. And uh it's it's it's interesting to see that you know, they have a whole bunch of resources available to teachers across the state, but also to families. And uh, you know, the National Fire Protection Association, the NFPA.org. Um, there's a whole bunch of stuff there. There's even an app. I kind of I have it on my phone. It's kind of fun, fun uh Sparky the Fire Dog. I think you might remember that growing up in school and stuff. Um, there's little things where you can go in there and do little activities. Strategicfire.org, um, the national um carbon monoxide awareness association.us. And so these are things I think we can make available probably on the on the Pat podcast, and there's links to some of this stuff. But we're doing stuff in schools, we're doing stuff with the fire departments, um, but we have folks that are part of MI prevention that are available to come talk at even luncheons. So the Lions Club needs a speaker, uh, different civic organizations, those type of things. Um, we have a network. Um, and then we also do smoke alarm blitzes in certain areas. Uh, we've gone, I've been in Flint in the past with the American Red Cross. We've uh done projects down in Wayne County in the city of Detroit with the Carbon Monoxide Awareness Association, where we went out and put up carbon monoxide detectors. We still have a lot of folks that need smoke alarms in the state of Michigan. We still continue to work on that. But we've also found out that more people have smoke alarms but don't have a CEO detector. So we're trying to equalize those numbers. That'll be the next so that we can do that. But it's definitely through uh collaboration um that we're able to uh to get there.

SPEAKER_03 51:57

A lot of resources then.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

There's a ton of resources and and a lot of passionate people who um, and if you check out uh miprevention.org, there's a lot of little short videos. Eileen, the captain in Saginaw, she's got one. Stan Barnes, a gentleman with the Farmington Hills Fire Department, he's got a couple. Um like I said, we we keep adding to it all the time. Um, but we believe we have a message, it's a little short thing that you can show people and we can get what we really need. Our governor last year, uh Governor Whitmer, um, put together some a bunch of videos on what were really the topics that were affecting. Um, and those videos are available so that we can drive home that message. And a lot of it is we get focused in the society on the don'ts. If there, I really want to impress upon it's the do's do have working smoke alarms, do have an escape plan, do sleep with your door closed, do practice your escape plan, do spend some time with your parents. And those are things, you know, as we go into the holiday season, you're gonna go visit folks, right? So make sure that they have working smoke alarms. And we practice what we uh preach at MI Prevention. Um, you know, we go to folks' houses and we and and I mean, even of course of in our private lives visiting and we find situations and we fix them. Um but I I will say this my my boss that I have here at uh at Lara, um, I went during a staff meeting and just said, Hey, it's it's November. Would you please check in on your family members? And uh, you know, my deputy director, she contacted me on Monday after Thanksgiving and she says, I'm so glad you brought this up at a staff meeting. And I said, Brought up what? And she goes, I went to my mom's house for Thanksgiving and found out that she didn't have any working smoke alarms. Oh my goodness. But better yet, we fixed it. Her siblings went to Home Depot, they got the alarms and they put them up for her. And she goes, Now I know my mom's protected. And I think as we go into this holiday season, there is an opportunity here, and this is 365 days a year, but there's times when you're visiting. Um, and then the next day they went to her aunt's house and found a similar situation. So, you know, smoke alarm on every level. Um, get to 10 years sealed lithium ion. Um, if you think about this, the nine-volt one's going to be cheaper, but by the time you buy 10 batteries over 10 years, it'll be way more than the sealed one. So that's an educational opportunity. And if family members have smoke alarms that are over 10 years old, they need to be replaced. The sensors are only good at the 10-year mark, they're looking to have those replaced. And we have many fire departments across the state that have smoke alarms. And if you were to reach out to your local fire department and ask about it, um, they probably maybe can help you with acquiring those smoke alarms.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

Can I ask about fire extinguishers? Like if you have a little one for your kitchen, those also expire.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

Yeah, they this the fire extinguisher you're going to look at it, if it's out of the green area, then it needs to be recharged. Okay. Um, I'm going to share this, and and this is something we've been learning as we go along. Um, we would much rather have somebody escape a fire than fight the fire with an extinguisher. So, you know, that that's an area. Um, I'm not it's a good idea to have a fire extinguisher. Uh, but I will share this, especially as we age in place, that by the time you go and get the extinguisher, by the time you use the extinguisher, that you've lost valuable time to escape a fire.

SPEAKER_03 55:28

By the time you've put your reading glasses on to read the directions on the fire extinguisher.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

And so we're we're advocating for being proactive and proactive is leaving and leave the firefighting to the firefighters in your community. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

I'm glad I asked then. Um, this is all we've got for today, and we would like to thank Kevin for being here to tell us about himself and for MI prevention information.

SPEAKER_02 55:54

Judy, thanks for having me. This has uh been a great opportunity, and uh hopefully we can uh get together in the future because uh it's constantly evolving, and I know that we're gonna be more innovative as we move forward. And it's been great to be here today, so thank you.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

We're so glad to have you. And thank you to all of our partners in the firefighting for their service. We know it's a tough job. In fact, we have some volunteer firefighters on our own MPSDS staff. So we do know how valuable your contributions are. We hope everybody has enjoyed the show and we will be back soon.com slash mpsdf and on Twitter at mps. You can also subscribe to our podcast on iTunes and the podcast on Nevermind and subscribe to the video the next time.