Pt1, Brad Stoddard, Theron Shinew, Bob Batis, 30th Anniversary Edition

In September 1995, Michigan broke ground on Phase I of the MPSCS system. To help us reflect on this journey from those early days to where we are now - and where we are heading - we are thrilled to welcome two MPSCS Pioneers: Theron Shinew, who served MPSCS from 1981 to 2019. He started out as a steeplejack and rose through the ranks to become Deputy Director before retiring after an incredible 37-year career. And Bob Batis, Senior Director, Business Relationship Manager with Motorola Solutions. Bob was there from the beginning, when the State partnered with Motorola in the mid-1990s to help build the foundation of what MPSCS is today. Transcript: https://cms.michigan.gov/mpscs/-/media/Project/Websites/MPSCS/Social_Media/Transcripts/Brad-Theron-Bob-Transcript-Pt-1.pdf

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Welcome to TuneIn with Michigan's Public Safety Communication System. Or welcome to TuneIn with the MPSCS. I'm Brad Stoddard, Director of the Office of Michigan's Public Safety Communication System, also known as the MPSCS. Sometimes I'm referred to as the state radio system, that great radio system, the awesome state system, and anything else in between. End of the day, we all know it's just the MPSCS. For 30 years, MPSS has provided a stable, secure framework for interoperable communication across Michigan's local, state, federal, tribal, and private first responder communities. It's a mission we're proud to uphold, and this year we're celebrating a major milestone the 30th anniversary of Michigan's public safety communication system. As far back on September 30th, 1995, Michigan broke ground on phase one of this system. If you've ever had the opportunity to visit our offices, right at the main door is one of those special shovels that's marked with the date when the ground was broken on that remarkable day when we started efforts to construct the first tower in this system. From that first tower, we launched across Southeast Michigan in the Lansing area. That moment marked the beginning of a new era in public safety communications for Michigan. To help us reflect on the journey from those early days to where we are now and where and where we're heading, I'm thrilled to welcome two of the pioneers of Michigan's public safety communications system. First, we have Theron Cheneau to my right, who served on the MPSCS from the early days of 1981, where he started his career with the Michigan State Police, to the conclusion of his career with the MPSCS in 2019. He started out as a stablejack on the tower crew, climbing all of the legacy towers that predated the MPSCS. Some might even identify the safety issues of those early towers that no doubt structured our future direction of what we have with the MPSCS. And to Theron's right, we have Mr. Bob Batis, Senior Director and Business Relationship Manager with Motorola Solutions. Bob was there from the beginning as well. When the state partnered with Motorola in the mid-90s to help build the foundation of what MPSCS is today. Gentlemen, it's great to have you on the podcast today. Thanks, Brad. Thank you. Great to be here. So before we get into the MPSCS story, let's give folks a chance to get to know both of you a little bit better. Tell us a little bit about your background, where are you from, your family, any hobbies? What have you been up to since you retired?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Give us a little bit about your career. Okay. All right. Well, originally born in Fremont, Michigan, just north of Grand Rapids. And um my wife Kim and I got married in 1980 and um got a job with Michigan State Police in '81. So it was a pretty quick change from Fremont, where we live, down to Lansing. And uh we have two daughters, and um they have uh kids, and so we have three grandkids now. And uh first had two daughters and two grandkids, and are we ever gonna get a boy? And finally got a grandson, so that that's all good. Um early before um Tim and I were married, I joined the Army post-high school specializing in communications. Um spent four years stationed in Germany in California. Um studied electronics at the local college in Monterey, California. Um apparently my grades weren't good enough because I only got hired in as a steeplejack and not a radio tech or an engineer like you. Um but anyhow, after after the military, I returned to Michigan and uh started a career as a steeplejack with Grant Tower, which is based in Grant, Michigan, which is far from Fremont, Michigan. And uh that job entailed traveling all over the U.S., installing all sorts of communications towers, doing repair and maintenance on thousand-foot TV towers. Um, not home a lot, hard work. Um so when the opportunity to join the Michigan State Police, uh I I thought it was a gravy job. And when you say steeplejack crew, there was only two of us. So it was just Dale White and myself that was maintaining 65 approximately towers. That was probably about the dangerous towers I've ever climbed. You know, 50 plus year old towers, no anti-fall devices, no ladders, just climbing on one-eighth inch angles. It wasn't any fun. I wasn't sure what I got into. So um did that, and then like you said, and we'll talk more about it. But in 95 we started planning, or even before that, we started planning about the MPSCS. And um, I was really looking forward to some nice new safe towers.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Well, it's good. You know, it was one thing that that you know I like to share with our listeners, you know, when you think about how how big the world is, and then we have conversations with people and realize how small the world is. I I recall a conversation that you and my dad had at one point, and I didn't even know this, but as the three of us were standing around the tailgate of a truck and listening to you and my dad talk about being stationed at the same base in Germany, that that was a first for me. That the two of you, it was a number of span of years between the two of you, were both sharing the the high times as well as commiserating and you know, some of what you dealt with on that base. For me, that was a surreal moment as I heard you know one of my closest friends and peers that I worked with having a conversation with my father about his military career. That was that was pretty, and then during that same time, you know, find out there's stationed the same base. That was that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Pretty pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Well, I I know, you know, fortunately, Theron, yeah, I've I've had the opportunity to to know you, you know, uh a great deal of years, you and your wife Kim and your daughters, and the opportunity to even uh get to know all of your your grandkids as well through the years. It's it's definitely been not only an honor to to work with you, but even better to be a really good friend of yours. So you share your family with me. But I I want to take us back to you know your your retirement. You know, we we had the opportunity to submit a special tribute for you for your retirement. And I I know it is you know placed very uh appropriately in your home so everyone else can see that, but I just want to read this piece that we submitted that I know made it into that special tribute. What that said and that tribute is the public safety multi-million dollar radio rebanding project and remediation would not have gone the way that they did on time and on budget without the steady hand, tremendous leadership, and vast experience Theron brought to the projects. In addition to managing and overseeing over 500 million in FPSCS related projects, Theron brought purposeful and proactive planning that forced critical thinking before work began, minimizing schedule, impact, and rework. You know, Theron, at that time, your impact was recognized by many. Not only the team that that you worked with day in, day out, but also our partners with Motorola. But that was a special time not only for you, but all of us, to have you recognized in that legislative special tribute. So we want to make sure our listeners have the opportunity to hear the impact that you've had over a great deal of time in your career on this great state of Michigan. As you know, I proudly share around the nation when I talk to our peers, you know, we we're more than just a phenomenal peninsula. We are the high five state in the nation, and no doubt you definitely helped us achieve that many times over in your passion and focus to have an impact not only on the public safety community, but also the citizens of Michigan. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Well, thanks, Brad. Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Now we'll make our way to Mr. Bob Batis as we identified his role with Motorola. But Bob's had a number of roles with Motorola and an impact not only on the state of Michigan, but his impact across the nation with those roles that he initially started here in Michigan and then expanded across the nation. And Bob will go into a little more detail with that, but we're gonna take the same approach, Bob, if you don't mind. If you could tell us a little bit about your background, where you're from, your family, your hobbies, what have you been up to recently in your motor and role? Could you expand on your whole career for us?

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Absolutely. First off, I want to thank you guys um both for this uh tremendous, tremendous opportunity. Um, maybe more importantly, um, I want to thank you, um, Theron. It's been 30 years uh of a tremendous friendship. You know, people come into your life, uh, they say for a reason, a season, or a lifetime, and this has been a lifetime, and that's the best kind of friendship. So um for that, thank you. It's uh it's been a welcome, it's been a great ride. Um, we got a lot more to go. We're gonna be here for the 50th, by the way. It's good to know. Um with that said, I'm not so sure, and I hope Kim got it in the background, but just while you were speaking about Theron, a bald eagle came in, got a fish, and went right across over there. I certainly hope it's in the picture because it was absolutely beautiful and it's kind of emblematic of what's going on here. So um a little bit about me. Uh born and raised in uh Joliet, Illinois. Um I was born and raised into a blue-collar family. We lived on the tough part tough part of town. We call it the east side of Joliet. Um, and uh I learned to be tough early on. Um and toughness is just part of how I uh how I was raised. Um but getting past all that, um when I started working, it was young. Um I probably started at 15, 14, or 15 working on farms, um doing hard labor. Um just that's my dad thought I needed something to do and not not uh and not sit around uh in the summer. Um so that really started the work ethic part of of who I am. Um and then my uncle had an asphalt slash concrete company. I started working for him young as well, and I learned how to run crews and doing all that kind of stuff, and then I progressed into uh working for a mechanical contractor where I worked a lot in uh chemical plants and refineries. And that probably set the stage for the rest of my career. Um I learned really quick there. Um I was put in charge of a lot of things and I started working on turnarounds, they call them. And those are typically seven days or 14 days or 21 days. But each day, if you're late a day, it's over a million dollars of lost profit at the refinery. So I learned how to plan, um, I learned how to understand risk, I learned how to make decisions, um, and I learned how to be solid and kind of learned how to lead and deal with people and that kind of thing. And and that all led me to this. Um, one of the engineers that uh lead engineers out there, uh one you guys all know, Art Vaniggs, uh, that's where he was from, and that's where I met. Um so you know I've known Art a lot of years, but when when this project was uh was let um he told everybody at Motorola, you gotta get you got to get this guy. If you're gonna be successful, um, and that's how I got here. Um and it was uh a mission I wasn't quite sure of to begin with. Um I'm a construction guy. Um I know I know construction, I know that kind of thing, but little did I know about electronics, radio, or any of those types of things. Um But uh since then a lot's changed. So that's kind of kind of my story where I came from. Sally and I got married uh in 1994. Um we've got three kids. We've raised them here on this lake. Um, and I wouldn't look back. Um it's been a great place. I like to say that Illinois is a great place to be from, and Michigan's a great place to live.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Thanks, Bob. And um I I feel the same way. It was it was a pleasure when you came in. You know, we started a couple towers and we had some problems with the cement, and and um the the powers at B they didn't know construction, and I'm going, This this needs a little more care. And that's when Motorola hired you brought in, and from that point on it just smoothed right out. And like you said, we uh we met our deadlines and got her done.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

That's great. Also, you know, Bob, that you didn't share, you know, some of your passions. You love to hunt and fish, and I know uh you've you've got uh a great deal number of wall hangers that I've seen through the years. So just for our listeners, how many do you have on your wall that you've successfully gotten through the years? Five, seven, probably nine, nine or ten. Nine. Yeah. And and these would all be, if we were to class these, what would you class the majority of those nine as? I guess if you took the average, I'd say they're all 160 plus. So definitely an event hunter. Not many people know that, uh, but you know, the the passion, no doubt, that you put into the Motorola uh investment in the MPSCS and success is the same level that you put into your personal life as well. And you know, very much like you know, I shared about Theron. I've gotten to know Bob, you and your family through the years as well, your your wife and your kids, and you know, equally so, you know, I'm I'm fortunate to to get to know your family, both of your families through the years. You know, it's being able to break bread with both of you and your family has been uh you know definitely a proud moment of mine to be in that small circle of friends to be able to do that. So thank you. Amen. Carl said. You know, as it and you know, on behalf of all of our public safety users across the the state, you know, there's over 2,600 agencies on the system today. Uh we've doubled the amount of towers on the system from well, not quite double, but it feels like it some days, from 180 towers to 355 towers. That's that's a pretty significant shift in 30 years, you know, considering we concluded the initial build of the system in 2002. So, you know, in really 23 years, we've added almost double the amount of infrastructure that itself is impactful. But it's all the efforts that that you guys identified in the early days of this system that were the structured standards, the same standardized approach we've taken since then. So we appreciate all you've done and continue to do for this system. So we're going to take a little break. When we come back, we'll chat about the big shift to the MPSCS from its legacy system that predated it and how it really changed the game for public safety communications and interoperability in Michigan. Commercial break.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

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SPEAKER_02 16:47

Welcome back to TuneIn with the MPSCS. Again, I'm Brad Stoddard, Director of Michigan's Public Safety Communication System, also known as the MPSES. And we're soon celebrating our 30th anniversary by reflecting on the early days of the system, and with us today we have two key figures who helped shape it all. Mr. Theron Cheneau and Mr. Bob Batis. Let's rewind the clock just a little bit, and let's go back to the beginning. What was the vision of the MPSCS in those early days? And why was it needed in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Well, it uh it started in early 1990s, and exactly when I don't know, I was up on towers. I wasn't privy to a lot of that stuff, but the towers were in bad shape. And it was a 42 megahertz system, it had a lot of dead spots, equipment was getting old. There was certainly justification for the MSP to create a new radio system. Michigan's always been a leader in public safety communications, so it wasn't a stretch to see this happening again. And um then in the early 1990s, and when specifications of things were starting to be developed, I was tasked with putting specifications together for the towers and stuff. And and having climbed all sorts of towers and installed towers, I I kind of had what I felt was probably the best situation to end up in. We added things like five mile an hour wind loading, half an inch of ice, some additional antennas floating at the top and at the 200-foot level, so which really was preparing for the future, but not knowing exactly what was going to happen with the future. And it was just um I don't want to say all luck. I mean, we're we're I certainly was planning for extra loading because modifying a tower is not easy. And and boy, did that come true with all the locals that joined. I mean, first for the other locals, you had the other MDOT and DNR joined. So there wasn't a whole lot of additional loading to bring on DNR and M Dot, maybe some antennas to dispatch control stations. But once the locals started coming, we were really eating into that additional loading, which we didn't have to modify the towers and beef them up. So from that that perspective, that was um that was a good call. And um and that got us down the road to the point they said, Well, you did a great job on that. What about writing specs for you know the shelter and the generators and HVAC units and stuff? So, you know, had thoughts on on redundancy and and and always looking ahead for what's it going to take to maintain these units. Um, Michigan has been a leader in maintaining their own systems. A lot of other states and and countries they hire all that out. Michigan didn't do that. MSP had their own communications crew, and and that's the goal to go forward was to maintain this new system. It was gonna be a lot larger, we're gonna need more people, and um needed to design it where that was gonna be advantageous for us to do.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

That's good, you know. A couple things I'll add in there as I recall from the history research I did is uh I mean, as you shared previously, how fragile those prior towers were that you were climbing as uh Steeplejack. And my understanding that infrastructure was built in the middle of 1942. In the middle of the World War II, that that infrastructure was put in place. And as you identified, you know, the history that Michigan has had with uh uh public safety communications, law enforcement communications, I think initially started with in the city of Detroit, and that was the late 1920s. So we're we're almost on a hundred years that Michigan has had a hand in the leadership there. So it's interesting to see, I think, from the history I understood is you know, the the Michigan State Police initially created the first statewide system, considerably different technology than what we have today, in the early 1930s, and then they replaced that system with newer technology, and again in the middle of World War II, and that stayed in place until the MPSCS, you know, uh was really constructed. But as uh as part of the history as well, is I believe in 1984 is when the Michigan State Police said we need to do something, we need to create change, and uh that those activities that I'm sure you reported as concerns as a staplejack around the infrastructure that was out there, and your peers that were radio tech supporting aging infrastructure drove that direction of providing not only an environment that was robust, but also the vision that all of you had for the future. That would a a system that we're would replace it would be based on a standard space system as well as providing the capability for just at that time just troopers to talk from one end of the state to the other. Interestingly, as you know, many of uh our listeners know as well as you guys are well aware, cell phones didn't even have that type of reliability then, and they sure don't have it today either. So there's something to be said about land mobile radio and the value it has for you know public safety today, but you know, great points. Bob, anything you'd like to weigh in on that as well from your time from the Motorola perspective in the early days?

SPEAKER_03 22:40

Well, I g I I I'll take a couple shots at that. Um I was not I didn't understand the vision that was being created. I had a task and I was gonna finish that task. That was to go build it. But as Theron and I started working together and I started questioning a lot of things, um, I began to see what that vision was. As I said earlier, you know, I may not have understood radio and those types of things, but I did understand construction. And then I was really started to understand towers and prefabricated buildings and generators. Um and I think that vision what we ended up building to that vision is is what we took nationally. So, like you said, you know, yeah, I did a lot of things after I left this system, but I I took what we did, what we created, and I wanted to make sure that everybody else is gonna build something as resilient, as as redundant um as this system. Um and so yeah, um you know, I I was able to understand the vision, see the vision, you know, after after a little time, and then you know, basically take that and replicate it um across the country to a lot of different states. Um and there's a lot of states that all started from this. As Theron said, Michigan's a leader and they've always been a leader, and I didn't understand that at first. Um and now I clearly understand that. I understood it after after the first uh couple years of what we were doing, and nobody else could could even think about doing that. And everybody telling you you're never gonna get it done. You can't get it done here. We got it done. Sounds good. I think that's probably the only thing I had red.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Well, good. Well, thank you, Bob. The thing, the thing I also wanted it it was a cutting-edge system, you know, first of its kind. And having having our own people maintained it brought people from all over the US and the world. I mean, we had countries coming in and asking you, how are you doing this? And and I remember sitting in conference rooms half a days, and and I don't know, it was a country of Tawa Taiwan or whatever is here for a whole day explaining everything we did and everything like that. So it really was uh surprising to me at first how monumental this system was and from the different aspect that we were maintaining it in-house and and still are. Yeah, that's a great point there.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

And add to that is um uh you may recall we had the University of Ottawa that came in and and spent three days with us as they were trying to help you know the provincial police of Ontario identify uh provincial-wide system, and the report that came back out of that is it was remarkable what we had, not just as a public safety communication system, but it was the personnel. At that point, we had not experienced any turnover personnel, and unfortunately, I think at that time the only people that had left were either retirement or death. We we still had much of the same team that was in place, and I know that was a very sobering moment as we saw that report from University of Ottawa, um, which almost in a way mimicked a very similar report from the University of Michigan in the early days, even before I joined and had the opportunity to read, where it identified what the structure needed to be for the Michigan State Police or the state of Michigan to support a system of this size, and to see that almost probably 30 years between the original University of Michigan report and then what we saw from the University of Ottawa, it was it was very enlightening that no doubt through the years we've done the majority of things correct. Where there's some things that maybe we could have adhered to a little bit tighter to the initial report, that would have been beneficial. Uh, but to see that we still from the outside looking in from an independent authority that was rating us as success and touting that, we know that report was shared not only with the Ontario provincial police, but we know other countries were also able to see that report that was provided. So, you know, that again the accolades to to you and the all the rest of the early leaders in the system that had a vision and put that vision to reality working with uh Bob Batis and the rest of the team at Motorola. And I know there was a great deal of personnel in Motorola, it wasn't just Bob. Oh no, we'll talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to uh skip over the the other people that that built this, and and we haven't really talked a lot about building it because there was a lot of a lot of fun but a lot of long days. Um but um you're right. You gotta talk about Chuck Kuzum. No, yeah, Tom.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

We'll get there. I just want to add one more thing to what you said. Yes, sir. So I have traveled this entire country laying out towers, bidding towers, looking at all this stuff, seeing all these systems, and unequivocally, there is not anything like Michigan out there. They're just not. The communication system, more importantly, the personnel to both of your points that actually run and keep this thing going the way it is. The processes, the procedures, uh, all the quality checks, all the things you do to help protect yourself, but more importantly, all the first responders and the citizens of this state. It's a hidden gem that everybody needs to understand how great it is. It really is that great. It really is. And I don't say that because I helped build it. I say that because I've seen an awful lot, an awful lot, and there's nothing like it.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

It is a best kept secret. I mean, there's people in Michigan still aren't familiar with it. They don't know what it is, and and that's probably a good thing that all that happens behind the scenes, but it's amazing how I talk to people today and they don't know anything about it.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

So I completely agree. You know, I had an opportunity recently. I was um attending Cherry Festival and and had just a casual conversation with a gentleman that was standing next to me, and he was a police officer of Southeast Michigan, and we were sharing each, you know, just uh of what we both do. And I told him I said, Well, we probably help you every day and you don't know it. And I shared him with the exact same, you know, analogy of we're the wizard of Oz. And he touted how great the system worked for them, and they were uh uh I say a later adopter in the system, but how much this you know, end user, this first responder on the street, and what he saw or what he observed every day, what the system was providing for him, you know, in a way it was kind of a a surreal moment for him to run into someone that's actually the wizard of oz providing for him behind the scenes. So I completely agree with you, but that's a great segue. Because now we're gonna get into the next question. Who are the key players in designing, building, and bringing this vision to life, and how did those partnerships come together?

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Well, I I I guess I'll just take a little shortcut first and and and list a couple of names that are always on the top of my head. And you know, Dave Held, Harry Warner, um, Captain Steffel, Captain Miller, the rock and roll star, Brad Stoddard. Um those those all these state people, like you said, I mean, they they were dedicated. I mean, they really um put a lot of their life and soul into the system. And and before with the original M Msp system and the new one, and then then working with um Garrison and Tom. Um and and like I said, it was just a godsend when you showed up and you and I were out, you know, with our with our blue jeans, as Brad will probably talk about. But out there doing these uh sightings of these towers, and like you said, we didn't have cell phones, we didn't have GPS. I mean, you drove a lot, most of the driving you did. I had my laptop with a old Garmin unit with an antenna on it, and you know, going finding coordinates and stuff. So, I mean, I I've got a couple things I want to talk about in the build out of the system because we saw a lot of Michigan, if not most of it. And um, but there there was certainly a lot of people that supported me and guided me, and and and they made it a wonderful career. Wonderful career.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

I I'd I'd add a couple couple things. Um the and on our side, of course, we had a uh we couldn't have done our job if we didn't have our engineering team saying, hey, go out here, go do this. So, you know, you had the Carl Zimmer, Steve Vedra, Mike Beebe, Tom Garrison, Chuck Kuzno, John Briquette, Dave Weatherwax, um, Jerry Buchanan. He was our S the first ST out there. Um, you know, Barb Nichols, Jerilin Maida, you know, that was the cohesive team, and if it wasn't for that team, we couldn't have been successful. It was just always, no, it's over here. No, Bob Theron, go check this one out. Bob there and go check this one out. Um, and that's what we were doing. Um so yeah. Um a couple different things. Steffel was uh probably my favorite character outside of you and I, just because uh Jeff was uh in the right place at the right time. Um everybody goes in these leadership positions for a reason if you're successful. And Jeff was there because we needed a bull. Uh we needed to knock down barriers and roadblocks so we can go do our job. Um, so you know, one of the uh before I forget it, it just popped in mind. Dave Doty from the state. Dave Doty was was doing the site acquisition. So right after we said this is where it is, Dave and team were all over it. Um there was Mary somebody at uh Levine. Mary Levine. Yeah, Mary. Um so so that team, that team also was very key cog in the wheel for us to be successful. Because if you don't have the land, you're not gonna build the tower. You can go site whatever you want, but if you don't get the land, you're not gonna build it. Um another thing I'd I'd add here is that um I guess you said it before, Brad, but you know, this was the largest contract that the state had ever let. It was the largest contract that Motorola had ever embarked on. Um so you you just can't imagine the pressure, or maybe you can imagine the pressure, that's on the teams to go execute. I know there was pressure from Steffel down on you guys, and there was pressure all the way from back in Schaumburg to Chris Galvin and everybody else to be successful because we couldn't fail. Um the one thing I I'd add on this is that on the public act, or on the yeah, not public act, on the first phase, there was four phases scheduled for this, but it was a one and done, or it's a one and everything. And if we weren't successful in phase one, everything else was bye-bye. So a $200 million contract um could have we could have failed, but we use that as motivation to be successful. Um so that so all those things came together. Um, I guess that's the kind of stuff I I talk about when we talk about partnerships and and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah, I think you know many of the names of those personnel, um, some, you know, unfortunately are no longer, you know, with us. And and those that that still are you know that are retired, you know. I I know I've had the opportunity to talk to some of them, I know both of you gentlemen have the opportunity to talk to some of them, and many still ask at times, hey, how's the system doing? Or they'll ask different things. So I think it goes back to earlier what we had in the podcast is there was the passion, there was the people, and as much as what you both identified, many of the resources came in, didn't weren't coming in with an expertise in statewide systems or an expertise in you know particular, you know, uh uh system-wide components. They weren't radio experts, they weren't microwave backhaul experts, but they became radio experts. They became backhaul experts, they became generator experts, concrete experts, and it happened across the board. You know, I I fortunately had the opportunity to come in as uh Jeff Steffel was the captain. I I think it was a few months after is when I hired in, because I believe Dave Hell retired in 1997, and then uh Jeff Steffel came in after that. Um, oddly, I still remember the interview that I had uh the end of December in '97 with Jeff Steffel, um, Harry Warner, uh, Tom Evans, and uh HR person for MSP. Unfortunately, I don't remember her name. Um, and one of the questions that I had, this just goes to you know the passion of the personnel on the other side of the table. Um I was interviewing for a position that was more network-related because that was some background experience. Um, but in my resume, I talked about some security aspects that I was doing that uh in my space and defense days. Um, and my understanding from Jeff and Harry is they believe that uh if I knew one thing about microwave, I could be their microwave expert. So I became the microwave expert and didn't know anything about microwave at that point when I came in. But it was that level of passion. Anyone could easily have identified, well, he's he doesn't know that, so how's it going to help us? Instead, everyone came together. How can we help one another? I remember the early days of Steve Vidra, you know, sharing with me some of the knowledge he had. I know he's long since retired as well. You know, it's I think it was that collaboration that we had, you know, another team that you know we haven't talked about yet was our quality assurance team with you know beaver Governance Associates and Jack Duncan that was part of that. And you know, the I I've had the opportunity, we've done this in the past in a prior video with Jeff Steffel and Chuck Kuzno, where we talked about the culture that was established back then where there wasn't one entity that would fail. We were all going to fail together. So it really you know attributes back to the prior comment you shared, Bob, of the system itself was there there was a level of commitment on both sides that this was a big deal. No one was going to allow it to fail. And you know, many projects that we've, you know, we've all seen at different times where you know one entity of that project, you know, may not have carried the water, and uh that the success of that project was visible. And some have pointed fingers. It was that individual's fault or that team's fault. That was never anything that we experienced as part of the system. It became our fault. And our was the three legs of that equilateral triangle. You know, our QA team with Beefer Goff and Associates, you know, the Motorola team led by Chuck Cousino, and the MSP team led by Jeff Steffel, and then subsequently, you know, Tom Miller, you know, through into that project. Um, and I think that's that same culture that we still have today that you know it's easy to complain, but let's just stop the complaining and let's just focus on the success. Let's put the work in and let's make it work. Uh very much like what we had in the beginning. And being around from the beginning and being able to see that culture, live that culture, it was really easy. I think as we, you know, see in any environment, you have new people added to it, that's new for them. And you'll really try and understand that.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

But you know, to that point, Brad, um we sat down, um, and I first started understanding reading the specs when I came here. I was I was a little overwhelmed. Um, but then I saw the schedule um and I said, holy moly, um, this is gonna be quite the challenge. Um, but to your point, we didn't use it as an excuse, we use it as motivation. And we're sitting around a table in Jeff's Steppel. It's me and Jeff and Chuck and Garrison. Um, I don't remember if Theron was there or not, to be honest. I just remember him asking, what do you guys need to be successful on this project? And I told him three things. I said, we need to be exempt from local zoning. We need to make sure that this this is a state inspected project, not a local inspected project. And thirdly, we need to be have make we need to make sure that the state standardized our drawings, and the process would be seven to fourteen days. I said, and I laid it out. I said, if you can't do these things, because it's gonna be a 10-year project. And immediately Jeff, I think it was when two days, had a meeting set up with me and Irvin Polk, who was the director of remember that name. Yep, uh, Bureau of Construction Codes. And we sat down, Jeff, myself, Garrison, and Irvin, and I laid out everything. And Irvin looks at me and says, We got you. We can do those things. So that's the motivation you talk about that Jeff had to make sure that we did it. One could have just said, You're on your own. You got this contract. But he didn't. He said, What do we collectively need to do to be successful? And that same culture, I think, has carried us through this 30 years. It's a give and take. We'll talk about some of that stuff, a give and take. But but that was the beginning of the success. And the and the local ex exemption thing, this is again where we you everyone should be applaud what Jeff Steffel did. Um he took that and he got legislation added or amended to Public Act 538, which exempt which made this system when we're building it exempt from local zoning. And it went through a couple lawsuits, it proved valuable, and we moved on. This thing would have never been built if those three steps weren't weren't taken on the front end of this.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

So I uh I I I gotta throw one more kudos out to Jeff Steffel. Hopefully his head doesn't get too big about that. But within a month of him being the new director, he goes, I want to go climb a tower. And I go, You want to climb a tower? And he goes, I want to know what you do. And we went out and climbed a 330-foot tower in a wasso. And um I'm going, This is remarkable. I mean, I never had a director that wanted to understand what a steeplejack was, what it took. And uh that that always impressed me. So I really appreciate Jeff you doing that. That's good. Thanks, Theron.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Uh, because I know I'm gonna hear that from the rest of the team that listen to this podcast. Yes, uh I better start getting ready to be climbing a tower here real soon. Um you know, I I think you know, with that is I know you and I had joked about this in the office for years, uh, but I've even heard it from some of the team is you know, when when am I gonna come out and and do their job? And I offer them the same when you want to come do my job. Um, fortunately, they're not taking me up on it as fast, um, so we're kind of equal in that. But I agree the same as what I saw with Jeff back in the day as a young engineer. He wanted to know what we did. And it wasn't just that we were working, he wanted to understand the fundamentals. He really wanted to understand that. Uh, very similar was true with Tom Miller. Um, you know, Tom wasn't as hands-on, I think, as Jeff was and and what we were doing. He was taking a step back, looking at it from a project standpoint. But it's that passion of any of the leaders of all three teams that were involved, no doubt, was the success of what we had in the early days that we still see as success today. But I know around uh some of the the bigger challenges, as Bob, you identified some at there and you did as well. But what about working with different stakeholders? G you have any issues, you know, outside of, I know Bob, you shared, you know, with within state government, you know, but but outside of state government, like around site acquisitions, any any stories you can share with our listeners of, you know, any opportunities that you guys had to be uh news media, you know, at the last minute, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 43:22

Uh-uh Bob, you you deal with that one. I I will deal with that one. Uh this is how this is how uh how much I really uh came to like Jeff Steffel. Um, you know, and our camaraderie goes deep and wide. Um and the respect I had for him and this organization when Jeff asked me at one point, we were getting a lawsuit was coming, um, but they were they were playing the long game. Um and they were gonna stretch this thing out as long as they can. And Jeff, his strategy was no way, we're gonna get this thing moving right now. He came up to me and said, Bye. Would you mind getting arrested? And I said, Is it a felony or a misdemeanor? He said, No, I don't really want you get arrested, but but you're gonna act like you're gonna get go get arrested because if you do cut a tree, they'll arrest you. So don't cut the tree, but at least start the chainsaw. And there's gonna be cameras all over the place. There's gonna be somebody that's gonna give you a stop work order. I need that stop work order. You need to bring it back to me and uh go from there. So Theron and I uh drove to this site, and by God, he was right. There was cameras waiting for us, there was people waiting for us. I drove my Bronco right in, or they had the Bronco at the time. Drove my Bronco right in there and uh got put our hard hats on, grabbed the chainsaw, took it out, started to do it, and everybody went, Ape shit. Stop. Yeah, they they they went crazy, and the cameras were rolling, they gave us a stop work order, and oh, and we were given strict instructions. Don't talk to the media. Yeah, don't say a word. And they were asking us all sorts of questions, and a lady finally asked, Well, do you know your name? I can't tell you in a way we went. So that was uh that was quite the challenge. Um it was quite fun, actually. But yeah, you talk about dealing with something. But I would do that again in a heartbeat if that's what it meant to get this system doing a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

I don't think Jeff asked me, but um he kind of told me. But uh the other one, the the one, no, there's several, but Sile Township. You know, when we go sight these towers, there's a lot of nimbies. Not I don't want it in my backyard. I want the tower, I don't want it in my backyard. Well, in So Township down by Ann Arbor, we find an industrial park. It's like this is a perfect place to put a tower. The tower is a 485-foot tower, and it was like 300 feet away from the water tower. This is beautiful scenic sile. Sile township. And they went crazy. You know, you can't put this big tower up next to our beautiful water tower, and the whole thing was, well, it it could fall over and knock out water to the community. And of course, Motorola and Pyrod, the tower manufacturer, brought their engineers in. They don't work that way. So we we were allowed to move forward and finally get that tower put up. But um it there were there were entities, uh, civilian and and government that that would push back for not good reasons, that's for sure, in my my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

You know, one of the other challenges uh uh when you say it, um I look back at it, I say it probably one of the biggest challenges we had was us. Um us trying to figure out how to be a team, us trying to figure out and align ourselves to go execute this. Um, you know, at the first I said this early on, you know, Theron and I were we had many of uh sometimes heated discussions on what the intent of the contract meant. Um and I don't really understand this, or I don't really understand that. He got frustrated, David Goff got frustrated, we all got frustrated. And again, Jeff, your head don't get too big. Um he brought us into a room. I don't know if you remember that. No, I remember at headquarters, the old the old old one there, and um he locked you, me, and David Goff in a room and he said, I'm you don't come out of here until you figure it out. I'll be standing out here, you let me know when you figure it out. And you know, it was at that point in time that we just kind of looked around the room. We realized that we are we all have the same goal in mind. We all want to do the right thing. Um so that's how our partnership kind of really began. We realized we have to have give and take here. Um, you know, puts and takes to to get this thing done right. And in order to execute on behalf of us and behalf of you, um, we just realized we had to align ourselves and um figure it out. So I really understand it. That's really understood what the beginning of of trust and relationships and alignment goals and in and bringing those things together and having three people going at the same goal is a lot easier than one. And that was uh so from a challenge perspective, it started that way. Uh it ended a lot differently.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Yeah, and that was really early on. It wasn't it it wasn't too far into the project. No. And uh, and like I said, we after that we were hitting on all cylinders and there was no stopping us at that point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

Yeah, I think I came here in actual I I moved here in eight well, we bought the lot in April up here, but I started in mid-July. Um and that's when it started. We started right right then. I mean I I got an advanced copy of the the specs, so I was reading them in advance before I started. But yeah, it started in July, July, August.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

It you know, while while we're you know, on the what we've learned from Jeff Steffel moments, um, you know, as as a young engineer that came in, um Darren, you may recall this, Bob. I I hate had not met you at that time, but uh it was at a time where I had uh maybe a little bit longer hair than I do now. And I recall on a Friday uh Jeff Steffel stepped into my office and said, Hey, uh Monday, off the collar. And I thought he was joking. And so I joked back. You know, I was a a young uh I guess spirited, energy young man. Yeah, sure. So I laughed and pushed back, and he sternly looked at me and he said, official order, and rattled off what the official order was cut your hair by Monday. And then he said, also, by the way, get your plates changed. You live in Michigan now. So there was there was a couple moments where his personality definitely came through, and with that, as you said earlier in the podcast, there, and I remember another time as a young engineer, my prior engineering jobs I had, I I showed up to work in jeans and flannel shirts or collared shirts for the most part, uh, until I started working for the Michigan State Police, and then I was to show up every day in a suit. And at the time, uh it wasn't that long into the job, and uh Jeff Steppel pulls the the engineers in the room, and there was four of us at the time, um, and he shut the door and he said in a very strong tone uh the workday is from eight to five, lunch is from twelve to one. You'll wear a suit every day. Got any questions? And he wasn't looking for questions, it was a statement. And you're I never understood the time because here I saw Theron. It was early on in the days when I met Theron. Clearly, I'm in a suit and tie every day at this point, following the rules of the boss. And Theron was in jeans and work boots. I'm like, man, how does this work? And I find out what Theron's role was, and man, I somehow convinced Jeff Steffel that, hey, engineers, a, it's okay for them not to wear a suit every day. Uh, but two, also be in the field a little bit more often than what we were. So we'll roll forward a whole lot of years, uh, because I think Jeff retired not long after he had been there, maybe 18 months-ish, somewhere around there. I know Jeff will we'll catch them on the next podcast, Jeff, and how long you were there uh after uh you made a great decision in hiring me, we'll say, Wake. Uh but I I asked I joked with that about Jeff, and he shared the story with me many years later, decades later, actually. And it was the the leadership that he had from a perspective, which I didn't see at the time. I was seeing it as a young man, didn't understand. And what he was sharing was we were the first engineers that state police was hiring, and most of the people within the office, they they didn't know what an engineer did. They didn't know engineers, and he wanted to make sure that we were respected as professional lead professional technical leaders in that environment. And he believed that you know it's what we've all learned is you know, you you act the way that you look. And if you look professional, you're acting professional. Well, that's a level of integrity and leadership. And you know, it was one of those in a way, I think jokingly, I smiled. I definitely didn't say it because I still respect Jeff immensely. I felt like, man, why didn't you just tell us that way back in, you know, in those early days? But you know, I think that itself is we all are sharing our memories of Jeff and how we approach things. He approached things very methodically. Sometimes it didn't necessarily make sense at the moment, but he had a very methodical process uh to his approach.