Pt 2 Dir. Brad Stoddard, Theron Shinew & Bob Batis, 30th Anniversary Edition

In September 1995, Michigan broke ground on Phase I of the MPSCS system. To help us reflect on this journey from those early days to where we are now - and where we are heading - we are thrilled to welcome two MPSCS Pioneers: Theron Shinew, who served MPSCS from 1981 to 2019. He started out as a steeplejack and rose through the ranks to become Deputy Director before retiring after an incredible 37-year career. And Bob Batis, Senior Director, Business Relationship Manager with Motorola Solutions. Bob was there from the beginning, when the State partnered with Motorola in the mid-1990s to help build the foundation of what MPSCS is today. https://cms.michigan.gov/mpscs/-/media/Project/Websites/MPSCS/Brad-Theron-Bob-Transcript-Pt2.pdf

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Now as uh we move on to you know the next question. It's uh you know focus around trust. You know, we've talked about this through in the podcast, but we've been through many things that we've said, you know, our external partners have evaluated that and identified it as well. But you know, a system is only as good as the trust it builds with its users. Can you talk about how you worked with counties, cities, the first restored first responder agencies during those early phases? And how'd you bring them on board? How'd you convince them?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Well, you know, it was really funny. There were some counties that I'd talk to and go through all the the pricing, the credits you would get if you had a tower that was, you know, good and and they needed to add additional towers to the system. And honest got half the time they go, okay, what w where's the gotcha? You know, what what's gonna bite us in the butt if we do this? And it's like it's all here. There's nothing. I mean, it was almost too good for them to believe that that's all they were gonna have to do and and pay to join this system. And there was actually from an the IT, the the technical people in the county said, man, this is this is a no-brainer, we gotta do it. But we're gonna have to wait until you know a couple of the people move on, retire, or whatever. And and that and that was sad. I I I just thought that was sad for the taxpayers to to continue to use their legacy system, or in one case, put a brand new legacy uh or a brand new system in not connected to the MPS. Yes. I didn't understand that at all. But um it it once you once you got through the mechanics, it it was it was a pretty easy sell, you know. So um I I I I I think as it just took a lot of time. A lot of counties, right, needed to save up funds, understand it to come on. But I I from what I've heard, the majority's on, right? Yeah, we're down to uh five counties.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Five counties that are in of the five, uh two of them we've had conversations with in the past 60 days. So I mean they're they're they like others, you know, there's some financial hurdles that they have. Um some of it is is you know very much what we've seen, you know, through uh really most of the past 20 years, which is what you just identified, you know, some leave.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Here's an asprey and a bald eagle right there. Sorry, Brad.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

There were counties like Macomb County that were so professional. I mean, it was clean, black and white, and then you had other counties that it was very handshake deal and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

So it's you know, I I know you experienced, you know, more of it in your role um as I was gone for you know a few years ago, taking on some other opportunities and and state government. But you know, I was never far away between the conversation I'd have with you and the conversations I'd have with monthly practice with Bob Tarrant, I I always not only knew what was happening, but sometimes I was given the opportunity to provide some advice or some direction. And you know, so I I I believe even though that on paper I worked in different areas, but a career standpoint, I was always part of the MPSS from that entire career. And yeah, I I recall some of the you know those those county meetings that you and I would, you know, drive to. Some of those, it was long days. We would work most of the day, climb the car to be to a county meeting.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah, no long days.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

I'm sure you guys will cover that here here shortly. Um, but we would climb in the car and drive to the other side of the state for a county commissioners meeting or a board meeting, and then we turn around and drive back, and then the other, you know, start the next day, you know, the same way. And you know, many of it was as simple as what you identified is there they were believing some way that this couldn't be truthful. That's the way exactly. You know, and I think that's the part is I continue to look back, and I know uh both of you as well as others that have been part of the system over the past 30 years, is it truly has been a successful system. We've taken the taxpayer dollars and spent them wisely at the state and local level to ensure that in lieu of duplicity, we have a single system that's providing interoperable communications from you know the furthest tip of the Keweenaw Peninsula up in Copper Harbor to the southern tip of any of our southern border with Indiana and Ohio. And I don't think there, and you had you know a big hand in one site in particular that you know some of our listeners probably aren't aware of, but we actually have a site in Ohio, don't we? Yeah, yeah, we do. And and uh sometimes that pains me to say that that we have one there, it'd be better to have one in Indiana. Someone's got to take care of them. But but that was part of the partnerships that were identified early on, is where we needed coverage, there was a greater value in lieu of building something. We reached out to the state of Ohio and say, we, it was really, you know, fair, and I know you were integral in all of that. And the relationship you had with Daryl Anderson in those early days that really facilitated that. And you know, since then, you know, I've had a great relationship with Daryl Anderson in Ohio. He's long since retired, but I still talked to him on a regular basis. And same is true with you know Dave Smith, who was the former director uh in Indiana on their statewide radio system. You know, is what was said earlier. We led everybody else, but around us followed suit fairly quickly. I think others may have wished that they were ahead of us, um, but we're still national champions.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Well, you know, we've we've kind of jumped ahead and or or I guess I want to jump back a little bit because you know when when Bob and I went out and and and put that stake in to say, okay, this is where the tower is going to be, this is where the the shelter, and we had you know some cookie-cutter designs, but we had to go and look at the property that the buyers identified that the engineers said we need a tower in this area, and and we'd go and put that center of stake tower out there. So I mean, you and I, for a long time, and maybe it's still that way, we're the only ones that ever been to every one of our tower sites. But it was funny because I mean we saw more animals. You remember the animals we saw?

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

I mean, we're up near Mayo, and and I'm telling Bob, all right, turn right at this corner, and we get out here, and I says, Well, we're gonna see elk. And he goes, Why's that? And I go, it's right there on the map. There's an elk right here on the map. A big paper map. Yeah, yeah, big paper map. And and we parked and we walked over the hill, and I'll be damned there wasn't a herd of elk there. Really? Isn't that crazy? Big dad.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah, he's juggling and had a I don't know, four or five cows with him, and I was like, holy cow, mark this site down.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, and there's there's other stories that that just was so fun and badger, so expadger. Badger stories, right? Yeah, we're driving down a gravel roll. It was a logging road, and there's dirt like being thrown almost all the way across it. It's like, what the heck's going on? We pull up there, and here's a hole, and dirt's just flying out of it. And um, all of a sudden, this badger comes out of the hole, you know. Kind of like roll my window up a little bit more. But um, bear and and obviously deer, and and uh I don't know if I don't remember we saw a moose.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah, I don't think we ever saw anything. But what else what uh I do distinctly remember, I think you remember this one, is uh at site 1702 when we're sighting that tower, it's kind of in a rolling hill. Uh that wasn't gonna be a guy tower, so it's kind of a big piece of property. We come up over the hill, and uh I I see this pterodactyl looking thing coming at me. And I've never seen a sandhill crane in my life. This thing is coming at me squawking, squawking. I had no idea what this thing was. And uh, and little did we know that you know it had babies with it, thought we were gonna be attacking their babies, but I've never seen a pterodactyl in my life. I thought we were back in Jurassic Park.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

No, I did see one that night.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Well, you know, great point. You know, you you both had an integral role in determining the placement of every MPSCS site. You know, I as you just shared the animals that you saw, but can you can you walk us through the process that you took, you know, from the time I know you just didn't randomly go out and look at property. How what was the process like you know from the time that it started to your guys' role at every site where you identify the center point where the tower would be?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Well, and chime in anytime, Bob. But I mean, there was a lot of work done before Bob and I got there. I mean, you know, motorole engineers would would say, okay, we need a tower. I believe it was a five-mile area radius to get the proper coverage they needed. And then buyers, Mary Levine's group, would go out and and find a piece or several pieces of property. And then you and I would go out and say, okay, this might work, but let's look at the other one that's available. Oh, yeah, this is a lot smoother, and you know, I mean, sometimes we had to buy 40 acres to get the tower to where it needed to be. So we always tried to keep the drive as short as possible, but that wasn't always the case. Um but it was trying to decide whether it was gonna be a self-supporting tower or a guide tower, depending on how you know, guide tower takes like 17 acres of land to put that sucker up. So uh in some cases they were self-supporting towers, which was more money, but we were always trying to be money conscious, obviously. And um, we'd put that center of stake in there, and then Bob's um the engineering team would take over and design it and stuff like that. So that it it was that was pretty straightforward. It's just someone had to go out there and put eyeballs on it.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah, I think if I remember right, there was probably an average of eight to ten sites we'd have to look at for every site there was. So they had all these alternate sites because they knew there's no way we're gonna get every site we looked at. So as as it as we especially in the lower half of the state of this of the state, there was more, there was more options, if you will, on sites. The further we got north, the easier, I say easier, it was a bit easier to procure the property because there's more of it. Um But yeah, that was the process, pretty much what Theron described is it we had to work with again going back to the teamwork discussion with the Dave Dodies and Mary Levine's and our engineering team in Theron and I. Um, but I don't know. We did more case in case you uh um don't remember this part, but we actually laid out the towers too. Um after phase one, or at maybe as the middle of phase one. Like where the guy wires. Yeah, because then I got we we got a digital theatolite survey uh um you know set set up and we'd actually set it up, find true north, magnetic north, and start laying the tower site tower tower sites out. Um so then when the surveyors got there, life was a lot easier for them. Um didn't and it was how we wanted to make sure the orientation of the guy warriors were you know for the road and on those types of things. So yeah, it was quite the process. Um but as Saren said, we got it down to some cookie cutter stuff after a while to help make it a little bit easier for us.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Now so uh you know, regarding some of those sites, uh, I haven't been to all the sites. I've been to a lot of the sites, and there's one of them in particular. I'm curious how you guys found this site, and you know, was there not a better site? I think it's Black River. Uh is that the one with all the switchbacks on it? Oh, yeah, yeah, yes. No, there was not. Yeah, for for those that aren't familiar with Black River site, it is um it's it's a short potential road from the main road to the tower site, but it's a long road because you've got to go back and forth. And when you get to the top, it's an abrupt stop because the propane tank is right at the top. But I think that was that was one of the first ones that I was in in that area of the state, and I think that was one of the rare times I saw the amount of turkeys I did. I thought it was a Black River coming across the road, and it was actually just probably thousands of turkeys. But no, I remember that site.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

We go back to the options again, um and we were stuck. Um, you know, that we didn't have many options. I think that was the only option we had for the coverage, and I kept pushing back on the cost and the road, and holy cow, it was an engineering feat to put that together and the geo grid and stuff we had to put in to keep the uh the the road in in in place. But we again we had to go back to give and takes. Uh it was what we were dealt with, and you know, you can build just about anything, um, anywhere. It's just gonna matter how much you want to pay for it. Um so that was one of those where I think we collectively said we have to do it. Right. And we did.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Uh no doubt, you know, there's the the top of that is a very tall, you know, hill. Imagine getting the building up there. Oh yeah. Well, I think I was there not long after that. The two dozers coming in. Yes. Uh but it was for me, it was definitely a you know an experience seeing that all the others were pretty flat drives in, as you identified, short roads. So that was that part of the state where I was I started to get out there and see, okay, these are definitely different up here. And speaking of different, I know you guys had some opportunities in the UP. Any, you know, any memories of sighting towers in the Porcupine Mountains and the challenges that was.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Yeah, there was there's one up on um a ski ski lifter. You know, you take ski lift up there if you wanted to, you could drive, but um but the view, I mean, we talked about the eagle flying back. I've been up on that site and seen the eagle and looking at Lake Superior. I mean, it's a beautiful, beautiful site. Uh definitely uh, if I remember right, is that the one we you climbed? Yeah, just gonna bring it up. I was just gonna bring that one up. The color, the color was awesome. It was and uh usually it was Greg Burbage and me that would climb a tower and inspect it. And you know, we get up there over the treetops and we go, you guys gotta come up here. So they put their gear on. I'm like, oh man, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Yeah, yeah. I was waiting for an invite. Yeah I was told uh I was told by our Motorola safety folks, never go climb a tower. Well, guess what? I climbed a tower. So you had your safety gear on. I absolutely was 100% tie off.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

You know, through through all of that, I know you you guys spent a lot of time together, um, you know, in a vehicle. Um do any stories stand out from that time? You know, a moment when you realize that this is really clicking on all cylinders. Or if you would, in a, you know, an example, this is really starting every time I turn the key.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

I I I'd say from my perspective, when it really started kicking into gear was was when we at the end of phase one, I guess, as as it started coming together, we realized we're gonna make this. We realized we're gonna do this. We realized what we had put together is repeatable, and we can keep doing it. And I think that's when I realized that things are clicking, and we just kept on keeping on. I mean, we had a system, we had a process, and we moved. Um we would start at at at uh you know before daylight, and we would come home after daylight. Um and many times or 16 hour plus days, um, because we again wanted to get this thing done.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Right, and and and I I think what you're referring to is not necessarily sight of the tower, but the final inspection at the sites, right? After after the sites all in there and and inspecting the tower, inspecting the grounding. I mean, I don't know, there was 30 some alarms that went back to the NCC. We checked every one of those, you know, high temp on the generator, low oil, you know, temperature sensor in the shelter, security. Um there was a lot of checks that went on um to make sure that site was ready to go when it got turned on. So that's exactly what I meant.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

And I I guess maybe for the audience to understand that not only did we site every tower, we saw the construction of every site, and then we inspected every site. Um, and that's a lot. When you talk about miles driven and and all that kind of stuff, I mean I know I know Theron, you were asking this, but no, there it is, right? I mean, we put we put over a million and a half miles um in support of of this um this construction effort from the beginning to end. And you know, on and on and on it goes, all these site development statistics. It's actually unbelievable. And I know you guys have been putting a little of these out on social media. Um good.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Maybe we can get a copy of this in the podcast at the end or something. It's uh there's some impressive uh statistics, some numbers there. Um, what you won't see there um is uh it's a fun story. We can edit it if we have to, but we're in phase two, and uh we're in Grand Haven, we had um hotel reserved, and we get in there, and we have these two guys from South Carolina, Greg Burbage and David Goff, are quality insurance people. So there's four of us, and uh we pull into town, and I said, Well, you guys um you ever seen the Grand Haven Pier? Nope, never seen that. I well, it's on the way to the hotel, kind of, you know, a mile or two out of the way. And I said, Well, before it gets dark, let's let's go look at this. So we go there, and there's huge waves coming in. And and someone had a bright idea, well, let's walk out on the pier. And it's going, Yeah, I'm game. So we get out there, and all of a sudden a rogue wave comes in, and it's like there's an overhead metal structure, and we're all grabbing this thing, and it'll and we get wet between the knees and the waist down. And uh, so then we go to the hotel and we're all wet and everything like that, and get our hotel. And we said, Hey, where's a good place to go have dinner? And she goes, Well, there's not too many places. Um, we got a power outage. Heck, we didn't even know there was a power outage. And she goes, Yeah, I mean, there's downtown's got power, but a lot of the area around doesn't have power, so she says, So go to this bar restaurant, and we went there, they have good hamburgers, fish, stuff like that. And this is where I knew this guy had my back. Because we're sitting at this booth, and this guy comes over, and he's gotta be six foot ten. I mean, he a huge, 350-pound guy, huge guy, and his name's Tiny. He said his name was Tiny, and he goes, I'll bet you 20 bucks I can blow a square smoke ring. We're kind of like, we're we're not, we're not interested, Mr. Tiny. And and the locals are all looking at us, and it's like something's going on here. I mean, they know this guy, they know what's going on, and we push back, no, no, not interested. So next thing I know, he takes a drag off his cigarette and he blows a square smoke ring. He goes, That's 20 bucks. And he wasn't gonna leave until we paid him 20 bucks. And and we're going, hey, we didn't we were not playing. He wouldn't give up. Next thing I know, Bob's getting up, gets in his face, and looks up at him and says, Tiny, go sit down. And I'm taking my glasses off, you know, Greg's rolling his sleeves up. And Tiny says, Okay. So I'm going, I I was so impressed. This guy is what you know, a foot taller than Bob and 150 pounds heavier, and Bob wasn't gonna take any crap off. Until I I I still remember that. Well, fun story.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Well, that that's the epitome of trust right there, you know, and the the value of you know that that relationship and partnership. All right, you know, as as we've talked a lot about the history of the MPSCS covered a lot of the time, what what maybe many may not recall is that was within the first few years of the system. It was before what we know, what we know today, what what created this whole shift in interoperable communications. You know, for a lot of years, agencies were on their own systems, and much as you know, there, as you identified earlier, some of the challenges that that you had and the team had as they were talking to local agencies, you know, around adoption of the MPSCS in lieu of continuing to Invest in a legacy system or buying a new system. But as you know, both of you gentlemen can, you know, think you know through this around that turning point, not only for the MPSCS, but honestly it was a turning point for the nation. You know, that that one moment in American history that truly underscored the critical need for interoperable communications was September 11th of 2001. You know, if there was ever a time that has been identified that public safety needs to be able to communicate with one another at all times, it that event truly put it in the visible eye of the people, of the citizens. Public safety may have known that for some period of time, but now it was brought into the perspective of the elected officials, the people, the citizens move. You know, on that day we saw communication systems fail under pressure. You know, essentially communication systems disappeared in that same day around the epicenter of that event. You know, fire departments couldn't talk to police, and some of that predated the event. It was just uh the way that business worked. Fire departments only talked to fire departments, law enforcement only talked to law enforcement. It was command officers that talked to one or the one or another. You know, but local agencies couldn't connect with federal responders or state responders, and no doubt lives were lost because in some cases help couldn't be coordinated in time, and and many of those lives were first responders where they were not able to hear you know the calls for help or the vacate uh you know need based on the events. What impact did that tragedy have on the MPSCS and how did you shape or reinforce you know your missions as you went forward following that event?

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Well, I I don't know if a lot changed going forward from my involvement. I I know MSP uh took and had cars posted at our you know big zone controller sites. You know, we had pretty good security. I mean, you know, the the the shelters were alarmed and everything. Um but I think we certainly learned the importance of having hardened sites, you know. I mean that the buildings were designed to be 306 proof, you know, bulletproof. And um we might have might have decided that was a time to buy a couple extra mobile generators in case we lost power. Um but I I I think for me it was still business as normal and and which was good. That's what the system was designed for. I mean, so I don't know if I can help you out on that a whole lot, too.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

But I certainly can. Um, you know, that was towards the end of this project. Um and it was like yeah, I would have said it was right in the beginning of 2002 or something that I I was asked to come out um to our New York office um and talk to some people about the communication system um and what interoperability meant. At this point, now I understood all those things. Um, you know, not knowing any of it, um, and seven years later I understood it uh quite well. But going to the uh the site of 9-11 was one of the most sobering things I've ever seen in my life. Um and then um, you know, as you get then uh get out and then talk to all these uh these state officials and and chiefs of police and stuff all over the place, you can intertwine the messaging of what interoperability really means and why you want to have hardened sights, why you want to have resiliency, why you want to have redundancy, um, why you want to have all those things. You know, so so all that stuff starting here, as I said before, you know, I did after I left here, I I I did 15 years around the country um talking to people about those things. Um, and that was really the precipice of kicking those things off um and talking about those things. So, you know, it was sobering um on one hand, on the other hand, it helped tell the message and the story of what interoperability really means um amongst things like your system, where you've got 2,600 agencies. Um it's amazing. Um, you know, so I think that's what the impact was for me.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah, I I think if I recall from the metrics that we have from back then, you know, I think around that time frame there were 152 agencies on the system. You know, I and around that number, you had to you know double check. But you know, from from that time to where we're at today with over 2600 agencies, you know, it's I I would agree with you there. And then the mission never changed for the MPSCS. If anything, it it you know heightened the opportunity to it justified it. Exactly, exactly. And I believe around the same time frame, it may have been within a year around uh or after that, um, I believe it was Senator Alan Cropsey um that at that time, you know, the system was still part of the state police and directed the state police to allow all public safety agencies to leverage the MPSCS, not just state police. And and you know, the the I that direction from the legislature at that time has continued to be our direction. Unfortunately, I I believe that you know the legislature was not aware that those efforts were already underway, you know, when Jeff Steffel was in place and subsequently when Tom Miller was in place. That was a lot of the dialogue that was had to build in the extra uh capabilities of the towers to to sustain that. But I think that became the catalyst between the the event in 9-11, and then subsequently, you know, the direction from again the the senator was the voice, but the legislature really, you know, put the effort behind that for uh you know the state police through the MPSCS to go out and market the system this they market really make it available. Uh and it's you're looking back over the 30 years, there was some slow years of growth. Um, I I know when I had the opportunity to be the acting director uh many, many years ago, City of Detroit was the first subsystem that we added to the system. Um, you know, the the irony that I came back as the director, knowing that I already knew everything about the city of Detroit and the subsystem that was in place there, but that started the entire shift in that of us adding subsystems, simulcast systems uh to the system and really changed then, you know, in building coverage capabilities in rest. So, you know, I even though you know what what we may not have had as this monumental shift because it was already our direction to build a statewide system to provide interoperable communications, but I think there there may have been some you know some events that were catalysts for us that that made the discussions a little bit easier, uh, both from you know with our first responders and our locals, well as our federal partners. I believe not long after that is when we really started seeing federal adoption on the system across many of the agencies, not just the law enforcement agencies, but also I believe you know the the national parks also saw that as a means to provide capabilities that didn't exist. So it you know, I it it became more of a dialogue than I think a shift for us because it it it again, very much like the MPSCS, no one was was watching. It we're with any public safety communication system, it's the Wizard of Oz, it's behind the scenes. Um now the 9-11 event and all all the activities that happened there, it put it right in the forefront of the citizens who understood that.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Yeah, I do want to say something there. Um, you know, we kept talking about Steffel earlier, but I want to say something about Tom Miller. Because when Jeff came in, like I said, you needed the bull in the China shop to get us to where we went needed to be to get this system on the air. But but also that perception of Jeff with locals was tough. Um and I I think they saw the state that way. Um but when Tom Miller came in, um, I and I say it this way, uh maybe a more polished politician, if you will, um, to get out in front of people and let them know that this is what our mission is. Um and I think Tom did a tremendous job um when he came in and started doing what you're talking about, rolling it out to to the rest of the locals and the feds and everybody else. So he did a tremendous job there from my vantage point.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Yeah, I completely agree. You know, working, you know, directly for Tom in those days, you know, he was faced with a challenge that Jeff was faced with as well, but I think more of a challenge. Uh support within MSP was difficult uh because you know, one thing that that Jeff was able to do, as you shared earlier in the podcast, was reach across into the legislative process and have those conversations. You know, and I think with Tom, he was he was not given some of those the same capabilities, as well as, you know, uh there was you know some changes within the state police that brought an entire arm of technology into you know our office that he had responsibilities for. So it was no longer just directed toward the continued development and completion of the project and growth of the system. It was now managing these other parts. And you know I I I would completely agree that the two gentlemen were completely different, but needed for the right time to deliver. Right time and right reason.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Um and and I'd say, you know, both individuals today, they're they're you know, they're they're both contacts that I've reached out to to ask questions, both from a mentoring standpoint, so from a history standpoint. Um, I have talked to to Tom probably more than I've talked to Jeff only, uh, because it took a little while until I was able to connect with Jeff. But once I tracked him down at a flapjack restaurant, uh that I was able to uh then you know reconnect. But it it what both gentlemen continue to have is passion around the systems. If I've talked to both of them, the proud the pride that they have and what what the system has continued to be able to do when they were a part of that. It's um it's great to see, and you know, some of it is they both had you know great careers, and to see that they both, you know, hang the MPSCS as monumental components of their career is still really positive to see.